What is a service project or service hours?

[FrankJ]

While a Life Scout, plan, develop, and give leadership to others in a service project helpful to any religious institution, any school, or your community. (The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting.) The project plan must be approved by the organization benefiting from the effort, your Scoutmaster and troop committee, and the council or district before you start. You must use the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook, BSA publication No. 512-927 , in meeting this requirement.

From the Eagle Rank Requirements on Scout.org. The dreaded should is there. You would think they would use the most up to date requirements since it is an official source.

PS I am in no way arguing that is any kind of meaningful loop hole.

[Bill Pitcher]

As Mrw states, an ESLP must benifit some organization (non-profit), church or school other than the BSA, and Life Scouts can NOT share a project towards Eagle. They must EACH develop and lead one themselves. The hours do count towards the 6 hours to obtain Star rank and the 6 hours to obtain Life rank, but NOT Eagle. Anyway, an Eagle candidates project needs to be pretty substantial enough to demonstrate his ability to plan and lead others.

[smtroop168]

The BSA 2011 Requirements Book takes precedent. They obviously missed updating the website.

Mandated Procedures are words such as “must” and “shall.” Where you see this language used no council, district, unit, or individual, without the written permission of National; has the authority to deviate from the procedure covered.

Recommended Best Practices are when words like “should”, “may” or “can” are used.

[scoutaholic]

... The project should benefit an organization other than Boy Scouting...

Our council found a way to use this loophole a few years back. One of our council summer camps is on land leased from the Federal government. The government inspectors came in a few years ago (after 75 years on the lease) and insisted on some site improvements before they would let the council continue the lease agreement. These improvements were done as Eagle projects, as they were actually done for the federal government, and not technically for the BSA.

[smtroop168]

Nice way to teach scouts how to get around the rules.

[WeeWillie]

A great lesson in character building. Would you want a mechanic who relied on loopholes to work on your brakes?

Not even a good loophole. While BSA was a tenant it still benefited from the work. Many councils in the Southwest lease land from the Feds and are required to maintain the property as a condition of the lease or lease renewal. How many millions would it take to purchase a similar tract of land to build a Scout camp?

Somehow I doubt an Eagle candidate came up with this loophole.

[VenturingL]

I've held off writing the following out of concern for blood pressures, but then I thought - I haven't seen the new policies, maybe the troop somehow got an advance copy -

The now-7-month-old troop my son is working with recently gave their scouts the following rules (in writing!)for service project hours for rank advancement:

Approved by SM (no problem there - keep going)
No more than 2 hours from any service project can be counted toward rank advancement
Service on other scouts' Eagle Projects cannot be counted (they said that fell into the "usual and expected" definition & therefore couldn't count)
Service project for Charter Org cannot be counted (same reasoning as above)
I think they also said Star going to Life needed to show leadership to prepare the scout for the Eagle Project (will have to double check - I don't have the paper in front of me)

So - rules changing that much, or are these unique interpretations allowed because the SM has approval authority?

The troop also requires each scout to use the MB worksheets available online & if scout doesn't, SM will not sign blue card. They have also stated that if a scout does not buy a MB book and swear they've read it, they cannot earn the badge. Since a new troop, few books in library - and they have point blank said the scouts can't share while they are working on the badges. I said something about adding to the requirements and got a very stern talking to by the CC (he's never wrong - just ask him)

OK - I'm done ranting

[wagionvigil]

Seems like someones Broad Interpretation of the rules actually changing the BSA Intent

[smtroop168]

I've held off writing the following out of concern for blood pressures, but then I thought - I haven't seen the new policies, maybe the troop somehow got an advance copy -

The now-7-month-old troop my son is working with recently gave their scouts the following rules (in writing!)for service project hours for rank advancement:

Approved by SM (no problem there - keep going)
No more than 2 hours from any service project can be counted toward rank advancement
Service on other scouts' Eagle Projects cannot be counted (they said that fell into the "usual and expected" definition & therefore couldn't count)
Service project for Charter Org cannot be counted (same reasoning as above)
I think they also said Star going to Life needed to show leadership to prepare the scout for the Eagle Project (will have to double check - I don't have the paper in front of me)

So - rules changing that much, or are these unique interpretations allowed because the SM has approval authority?

The troop also requires each scout to use the MB worksheets available online & if scout doesn't, SM will not sign blue card. They have also stated that if a scout does not buy a MB book and swear they've read it, they cannot earn the badge. Since a new troop, few books in library - and they have point blank said the scouts can't share while they are working on the badges. I said something about adding to the requirements and got a very stern talking to by the CC (he's never wrong - just ask him)

OK - I'm done ranting

NO. From one who has had a part in writing the new policies, the only correct thing in your post is the SM approval of the Service Project. An approval is important because it calls on a boy to think about what might be accepted, and to be prepared to discuss it. It is up to the unit to determine how this is done. In many troops it is the prerogative of the Scoutmaster. That being said, having prerogative and being ridiculous are two different cats.

On the MB issue, this is clearly adding to the requirements and the unit has no authority to do so. This is in the current book. At what point did the SM say he wouldn't sign the BC? After the MBC has or before he issues it? The SM supports the scouts swearing?

I can only imagine what other nonsense these so called Leaders are going to do with some of the other real policy changes that will be out soon.

[VenturingL]

SM won't sign the blue card after the MBC has signed all requirements if the scout does not affirm he acquired the MB book and read it. SM also reviews the worksheets and asks the scout questions about the answers. I have witnessed this.

[smtroop168]

SM won't sign the blue card after the MBC has signed all requirements if the scout does not affirm he acquired the MB book and read it. SM also reviews the worksheets and asks the scout questions about the answers. I have witnessed this.

He has no say in this. Once the MBC signs the BC, it's a done deal.

If the CC isn't onboard with fixing this, contact the Dist Advancement Committee ASAP.

[Quailman]

We've already discussed worksheets elsewhere, and this is getting OT from this thread, but I've told boys where to find the worksheets and that they may use them to organize their thoughts before they meet with me. I go on to say that they do not need to write anything down if the requirement does not say they must. If it says "discuss with the MBC", I will allow notes, but we will discuss it (or he'll 'explain' to me, or tell me the definition, etc.). I can't believe a troop would add to the MB requirements by insisting that they fill out the worksheets.

[smtroop168]

I can't believe a troop would add to the MB requirements by insisting that they fill out the worksheets.

There are a number of things we have seen on the forum that are unbelievable. The number of outrageous and whacky antics stories I've heard in the course of helping with the new advancement policy book is sad as well.

[WVBeaver05]

I've held off writing the following out of concern for blood pressures, but then I thought - I haven't seen the new policies, maybe the troop somehow got an advance copy -

The now-7-month-old troop my son is working with recently gave their scouts the following rules (in writing!)for service project hours for rank advancement:

Approved by SM (no problem there - keep going)
No more than 2 hours from any service project can be counted toward rank advancement
Service on other scouts' Eagle Projects cannot be counted (they said that fell into the "usual and expected" definition & therefore couldn't count)
Service project for Charter Org cannot be counted (same reasoning as above)
I think they also said Star going to Life needed to show leadership to prepare the scout for the Eagle Project (will have to double check - I don't have the paper in front of me)

So - rules changing that much, or are these unique interpretations allowed because the SM has approval authority?

The troop also requires each scout to use the MB worksheets available online & if scout doesn't, SM will not sign blue card. They have also stated that if a scout does not buy a MB book and swear they've read it, they cannot earn the badge. Since a new troop, few books in library - and they have point blank said the scouts can't share while they are working on the badges. I said something about adding to the requirements and got a very stern talking to by the CC (he's never wrong - just ask him)

OK - I'm done ranting

It's April - perhaps these were issued on 1 April That would make me feel a little better.

Actually this makes me feel better about some other things that I have seen in Scouting and couldn't believe would happen.

YiS

[VenturingL]

Sorry to take away your hope - April 1 was a Friday; troop meets on Mondays. And yes, I checked - they do expect the Star to Life scout to lead the service project(s) he uses for rank advancement. Since they only allow 2 hours/project to count, a Star to Life scout would have to lead 3 projects. I know....not in the rules.

[ronin718]

Sorry to take away your hope - April 1 was a Friday; troop meets on Mondays. And yes, I checked - they do expect the Star to Life scout to lead the service project(s) he uses for rank advancement. Since they only allow 2 hours/project to count, a Star to Life scout would have to lead 3 projects. I know....not in the rules.

This is what happens when parents take a back seat and employ the BSA (Baby Sitters of America) to manage their son's Scouting career. This would not (and did not) fly with my family. My son was being stonewalled on his Eagle packet by various members of the troop as they tried to impose delaying tactics. I simply informed my son of the proper rules for advancement, he then re-informed the Eagle Advisor, and the ball went downcourt fast. SMC and EBoR were held within six weeks.

Parents who know BSA rules are the best Scouting parents there are. Parents who won't put up with stupid stuff from stuffed-shirt leaders are so much fun to watch in action.

[wagionvigil]

I have somewhat stayed out of this but I am offering a suggestion to anyone that runs in to this situation.
A certified letter to Big Bob in Texas detailing this problem will probably get som fairly quick responses. You may not be the most poplar person in your council but I do believesomeone will try to rectify the problem. The CE will say he was not aware and pass it on till finally the DE gets stepped on and finally to the unit. The DE will need to tell the Unit jerks in no uncertain terms that here are the rules follow them or else.

[smtroop168]

Sorry to take away your hope - April 1 was a Friday; troop meets on Mondays. And yes, I checked - they do expect the Star to Life scout to lead the service project(s) he uses for rank advancement. Since they only allow 2 hours/project to count, a Star to Life scout would have to lead 3 projects. I know....not in the rules.

Another classic example of adding to the requirements (which is "take part in"). This is in the current book and will be reiterated in the new one.

The new book doesn't say much about SPs other than SPs required for 2nd, Star, and Life, may be conducted individually or through participation in patrol or troop efforts. They also may be approved for those assisting on Eagle projects.

As far as sending something to Big Bob, that's okay. My guess is that the SE and DE are well aware of units that don't follow the rules. Until there is a consequence for their actions, they will continue. There will be redress procedures in the new book that can be used in situations where units are not following the rules. The question is will the parent use them or just put up with it so their sons are not labeled as troublemakers. Of course that's when you hit them up with Bullying and the SE/DE has to take action.

[Fred Johnson]

There will be redress procedures in the new book that can be used in situations where units are not following the rules.

That's great news. Except for appealing Eagle BOR's, I think for a long time the only option scouts have had is to find a new troop. Change from within has always been difficult if not impossible. I look forward to seeing the new book.

[smtroop168]

The main redress is still for EBORs but also now includes the new Active Def, POR completion and EP approvals.