New Advancement Policies and Procedures Book

[smtroop168]

I (and all the other reviewers) just received (within the past hour) the draft project workbook. Comments due back by 1 July. The Adv Book is in final edit (and Lawyer review concurrently) but the two documents must be released at the same time since they cross reference each other.

Here's a question for all though....should the WB be available online ONLY?

[FrankJ]

I heard they pulled it back. Something about tandems.

[smtroop168]

I heard they pulled it back. Something about tandems.

Close...we had to rewrite the MB Counseling rules section to deal with renegade MBCs as part of the Railroading MB requirements.

#9 Show that you have ridden a non compliant MBC out of town on a rail. You are not allowed to use a tandem to meet this requirement.

[Reasonable Rascal]

Here's a question for all though....should the WB be available online ONLY?

Believe it or not, there are actually troops out there without internet access, or at least the ability to print documents off the net. Smart phones are replacing personal computers (desktops, laptops, etc) with printers left and right. My Advancement Chair has a computer, but he doesn't have net access (he's too afraid of virus'). Online-only access would be a serious impediment to the usefulness of the APP book if the workbook could not be accessed without passing the task off to whomever had a computer (and printer).

RR

[RWSmith]

Here's a question for all though....should the WB be available online ONLY?

.... Online-only access would be a serious impediment to the usefulness of the APP book if the workbook could not be accessed without passing the task off to whomever had a computer (and printer).

Matt,

Here's my angle on the [ESLSP] WB...

As RR noted, not everybody has access to da' net. However, I split these two pubs into two distinct categories, like so:

The ACP is written for specifically for use by Scouters (a.k.a., the "adults"). Therefore, I see no problem with National publishing the new ACP via soft copy only. Adults can be reasonably be expected to find the means to print a hard copy, should s/he wish to do so.

OTOH, the ESLSP WB is written for specifically for use by Scouts (a.k.a., the "youth"). Therefore, if you think about it... in order to truly comply with advancement policy, the WB must be made available in printed form to ALL SCOUTS, equally. While an electronic version is certainly helpful, it cannot be required because not ALL Scouts can be expected to find the means to convert a soft copy into printed form.

[smtroop168]

Here's a question for all though....should the WB be available online ONLY?

.... Online-only access would be a serious impediment to the usefulness of the APP book if the workbook could not be accessed without passing the task off to whomever had a computer (and printer).

Matt,

Here's my angle on the [ESLSP] WB...

As RR noted, not everybody has access to da' net. However, I split these two pubs into two distinct categories, like so:

The ACP is written for specifically for use by Scouters (a.k.a., the "adults"). Therefore, I see no problem with National publishing the new ACP via soft copy only. Adults can be reasonably be expected to find the means to print a hard copy, should s/he wish to do so.

OTOH, the ESLSP WB is written for specifically for use by Scouts (a.k.a., the "youth"). Therefore, if you think about it... in order to truly comply with advancement policy, the WB must be made available in printed form to ALL SCOUTS, equally. While an electronic version is certainly helpful, it cannot be required because not ALL Scouts can be expected to find the means to convert a soft copy into printed form.

Thanks and I can pass it along. The New Guide to Advancement will hopefully be read by parents and scouts as well as it contains information useful to more than Advancement Committees (like the real rules on MBs, BORs and Eagle Project/Applications/Extensions/BORs and appeals as well as good info on Scouts with Disabilities procedures. It is going to be printed and sold.

I think the WB is only available online now so scouts have been able to figure it out plus it will be in a more usable format and easier to edit.

[Bill Pitcher]

Can't wait to see it, Matt. Thanks for all of your hard work. Let's face it, every school has a computer lab, so a Scout can print a copy of the WB and fill it in the "old way!"

[ThunderingWind]

Can't wait to see it, Matt. Thanks for all of your hard work. Let's face it, every school has a computer lab, so a Scout can print a copy of the WB and fill it in the "old way!"

I beg to differ. My son's school does not allow the Interent for research etc... They have to do papers the old fashioned way with note cards, the big bibliography pages and use the library with the Dewey Decimal System.

[smtroop168]

I find this interesting...when the WB was only available in printed form, folks complained because they wanted the BSA to get into the current world and have an electronic version so it would be easier for the scouts to edit and save their work. The BSA was also able to make changes to the online versions much quicker. Same goes for the Eagle Application. The current electronic version is not very good as we know but his one will be much much better.

Printing these is not cheap and my fear is that the BSA will make a hardcopy Eagle packet (WB and App) and scouts will have to buy them at the scout store. Maybe they can add 21 Blue cards, forms for references and a form for Req 6's statements to the packet as well. $19.99 at your scout shop.

[Fred Johnson]

Dang. I feel baited. I tried so so hard to keep out of the discussion ... especially after the Sergant Hulka comment. I really did. Just say NO is so hard. Nancy Reagan help me!!!! Dang.

....

Drop printing and give us PDF files. So many scouting documents go direct from the printing press to the trash, including ESLSP WB, eagle application, G2SS and especially council annual reports.

The majority of Americans are online. The vast majority of leaders and parents are online. The vast vast vast vast majority of scouts have grown up online. I've yet to see an eagle project proposal that was not computer printed.

If someone doesn't have access, another leader can print a copy for him. If no one in the unit has access (really? sarcastic emphasis), I'm sure you could easily find someone to print it; another unit, roundtable, district, neighbor, ....

Back in 1995, I spent $500+ a year buying software programming related books from a store called "Computer Literacy" in San Jose, CA. Now, I'm down to $70 a year to buy a few seminal books. And those I buy from Amazon.com or BarnesandNoble.com.

...

Print the "Boy Scout Handbook" and the Tiger, Wolf, Bear and Webelos handbooks. PDF the rest.

Yours in scouting,
Sgt. Hulka


PS - How long before 2011 ACPP is available?

[smtroop168]

PS - How long before 2011 ACPP is available?

It is available in hard copy now. (Just Kidding)

We are working on the new Eagle Workbook with final comments due to National 1 July. Stand by for "Shock and Awe".

I'm guessing a 1 Sept rollout/effective date at this point but I'll keep everyone posted.

[FrankJ]

I find this interesting...when the WB was only available in printed form, folks complained because they wanted the BSA to get into the current world and have an electronic version so it would be easier for the scouts to edit and save their work. The BSA was also able to make changes to the online versions much quicker. Same goes for the Eagle Application. The current electronic version is not very good as we know but his one will be much much better.

I do not understand why you are surprised. This always happens when you try to make one size fits all solution. Besides some people just like to complain.

Councils will still have the option of printing out the workbook for units or individuals without the resources to do it for themselves. As a budget number for somebody with an office printer, 20 pages at 10 cents a page is only $2.00. Probably better than having centralized printing and the associated overhead. For those that have the resources doing the entire write up electronically has a lot of advantages.

One problem with all electronic versions is controlling the the revision process & knowing which version is current and what changed.

[Fred Johnson]

One problem with all electronic versions is controlling the the revision process & knowing which version is current and what changed.

* It's an even bigger issue with paper copies.

* Encourage direct use of the scouting.org version, on-demand, by having easy to access links that are consistent year after year.

* Have the consistent link be the latest greatest version with access to a history of previous versions.

* I've often used PDF/DOC difference tools to see what's changed version by version. With each version, it would be easy to publish multiple auto-generated difference documents. One that compares the current version to the last major revision. One that compares the current to the last minor revision (smaller set of changes).

Back in 1994, the company I worked for had a software process that had three very thick three ring binders of processes and procedures. Periodically, we'd receive interoffice paper mail with updates and instructions listing which pages to insert, add and remove. It was time consuming, error prone and painful. Same for employee benefits, another three ring folder, small size, but thick. That all changed around 1999 when all that went online. Now, many companies use SharePoint or something similar and rarely print routine materials.

If revision control is a challenge, it's only because we can do so much more and expect so much more.

[FrankJ]

Try to figure out which BSA pub is the current one--aside from the requirement book which thankfully has the year printed on the front. The ACPP is a good example.

A good idea with MB books would be to date the requirements page. Especially since older troops tend to have experienced (old) merit badge books in their library.

Speaking of a bad way for online documentation: The "official" G2SS is a bunch of web pages that seem to change randomly. The current one seem to align fairly well with the printed version, but it has only been 3 months since the printed version was issued. This is where you really need the change control police.

[smtroop168]

Councils will still have the option of printing out the workbook for units or individuals without the resources to do it for themselves. As a budget number for somebody with an office printer, 20 pages at 10 cents a page is only $2.00. Probably better than having centralized printing and the associated overhead. For those that have the resources doing the entire write up electronically has a lot of advantages.

Just checking...So you would support having the WB only available online but having councils print them off on demand.

[smtroop168]

Speaking of a bad way for online documentation: The "official" G2SS is a bunch of web pages that seem to change randomly. The current one seem to align fairly well with the printed version, but it has only been 3 months since the printed version was issued. This is where you really need the change control police.

From the BSA web site for the G2SS. they must have heard you

Online Version

Download the print friendly version . This is the full .pdf version. Please use the online version for the most up to date information. This was published 03/04/2011.

[Fred Johnson]

Speaking of a bad way for online documentation: The "official" G2SS is a bunch of web pages that seem to change randomly. The current one seem to align fairly well with the printed version, but it has only been 3 months since the printed version was issued. This is where you really need the change control police.

Agreed. Version control seems lacking. After three months, there are already minor differences (probably not changing the meaning) from the print version. But, how do you know? Also, the part in front of the preface is missing. And the links are broken in aquadics and medical sections. Of course, they are broken in the PDF and print version too.

I like PDF's better than documents published as simple HTML documents. Formatting is consistent accross computers. So you can tell people to see page ###. You can put revision numbers and date/time stamps on each page. You can download to tablet computers. You can page page number links and external links that actually work. I think a consistent, type-set look is important. But, that's me.

[FrankJ]

Just checking...So you would support having the WB only available online but having councils print them off on demand.

Realize my bias is I live in an area that fast internet is everywhere. It is available for free in public libraries. School systems are generally supportive of the scouting program. The council has less money issues than most. The preferred submission for eagle project write up in my district is electronic. (The signature sheet is mailed. The write up can be submitted hard copy)

But less especially for small documents like EPWBs it make sense to print on demand.

Here is a thought. Maybe BSA could partner with somebody like Kinkos. They could print the low usage committee handbooks or even merit badge books on demand. Maybe even make them available on something like a kindle.

[Fred Johnson]

Maybe BSA could partner with somebody like Kinkos. They could print the low usage committee handbooks or even merit badge books on demand. Maybe even make them available on something like a kindle.

If this was Facebook poker, I'd send you a friend request. Our council already has an agreement with Office Max to copy documents cheaply. We've used it several times for recruitment materials.

[japhmi]

Let's face it, every school has a computer lab, so a Scout can print a copy of the WB and fill it in the "old way!"

Not every scout goes to school! (over 95% of the youth in our Pack and Troop are homeschooled). We have more families without email than families who send their kids to school (and, yes, I have no idea how they survive).

That being said, having things in PDF is a great idea. I know I found many of the scouter manuals in a probably-illegal PDF online, but it is just so useful to have a PDF copy at work while my paper copy stays home.