Time extensions to complete Eagle requirements

[Bill Pitcher]

It seems to me that in this case it was more of the actions of the adults than the misinformation that is the issue that was the basis for granting the appeal.

Yep maybe so...my point is that the new wording places the burden on the scout to actually read HIS handbook and know HIS requirements vice saying "no one told me". The adults read the handbook and saw the EDGE requirement. How the adults handled it is most likely why he won his appeal.

Matt: I assume you mean that the Scout has the current edition of the BSHB and reads that one!

[smtroop168]

Yep...the statement is part of a larger paragraph on requesting extensions to complete Eagle requirements that says the situation must be beyond the control of the scout. Basically it lays out that the scout bears responsibility for his own advancement and that blaming the adults as a defense will be considered but should be rare.

[international]

My son knew the requirements, and was ready, the Leadership didn't (know the new requirements) and told my son to wait with the understanding that the waiting time would not be counted against him. I guess my son could've insist anyway?!.... But he likes to respect adult figures and to believe them, specially if they are Scouts

[smtroop168]

I'd love to see the letter your council sent to National on this. Email it to me if you would be so kind.

[Fred Johnson]

Congratulations! Glad it got resolved. I'm always proud to be in scouting when the final result is based on compassion and understanding, not just legalism. I'm sure there is much to discuss and debate here, but the key point is he stepped up and got it done. Congratulations to your son.

[FrankJ]

Part of the scout law is respect and obedient. A little bit of a two way street because respect and obedience needs to be earned not given..., but that is a different thread. Anyway. being a boy scout lawyer is not a requirement for eagle scout. If the troop leadership is consistently telling a scout the wrong information, that should be taken into account since they are the authority to the scout. All though I do agree that anybody who is eagle scout material should be responsible for reading and understanding the requirements.

[smtroop168]

Part of the scout law is respect and obedient. A little bit of a two way street because respect and obedience needs to be earned not given..., but that is a different thread. Anyway. being a boy scout lawyer is not a requirement for eagle scout. If the troop leadership is consistently telling a scout the wrong information, that should be taken into account since they are the authority to the scout. All though I do agree that anybody who is eagle scout material should be responsible for reading and understanding the requirements.

I think that is why the "read the book" language is added and again it only deals with scouts asking for extensions past 18. These are not kids trying to make Tenderfoot or even Life, so these young men should be able to operate on their own and figure out what they need to do to meet the advancement requirements including the big 3 ERMBs that have time requirements.

As far as the two way street and being respectful of others time, there also is a planned statement in the new Eagle Workbook that tells the scout that if he submits his proposal to close to his 18th birthday, it may not be approved in time to get to his planning and then complete the project in time.

[FrankJ]

I think there are two different situations:

The first one the is "Oh nobody told me" excuse. When clearly an eagle scout caliber person should be self motivated to read the book & clearly should know that 18 is a drop dead kind of deadline. If he misses it because of his own action or inaction, he suffers the consequences. Does not change the benefits of having been in the program. Making eagle scouts is not why I do this anyway.

The second reason is if the troop leadership is actively misinforming the scout either by intention or by their misunderstanding or by intentionally dragging things out to prevent the "unworthy" from making the advancement. This would have more standing with me. But even so it is hard not to understand the 18 is a hard date. So this should be an extreme case to merit an extension.

I do not think we are really in disagreement on this one.

[smtroop168]

I think there are two different situations:

The first one the is "Oh nobody told me" excuse. When clearly an eagle scout caliber person should be self motivated to read the book & clearly should know that 18 is a drop dead kind of deadline. If he misses it because of his own action or inaction, he suffers the consequences. Does not change the benefits of having been in the program. Making eagle scouts is not why I do this anyway.

The second reason is if the troop leadership is actively misinforming the scout either by intention or by their misunderstanding or by intentionally dragging things out to prevent the "unworthy" from making the advancement. This would have more standing with me. But even so it is hard not to understand the 18 is a hard date. So this should be an extreme case to merit an extension.

I do not think we are really in disagreement on this one.

No disagreement. #1 is covered under extensions, #2 is covered under a different section on EBORs "Initiating Eagle Scout Board of Review Under Disputed Circumstances"

[ronin718]

I have a hard time with the whole extension concept. I can certainly understand it for youth who join Scouting when they're 14-15 y/o. Time is more of an issue then. But for a young man who crossed over from Webelos at age 11, these boys have ~7 years to earn their Eagle. Since the only time requirement is the 16 months cumulative for Star to Eagle, it makes no sense for the boys to be crunching the 18th birthday. For me, this is a large-scale failure on multiple fronts.

I know each boy is unique, and his circumstances will be as well. In my own crotchety opinion, I give more credence and respect to the 16 y/o Eagle than the one who races breathless across that 18th birthday. That young man managed his time and progress better and can now give back to his peers and help them along. The 18 y/o is most likely out of the troop and on to college. Of course, he may have been giving while on his path, contributing to his delay, but that goes back to the managed progression.

[FrankJ]

I think it works fairly well. There is occasionally a reason for an extension. I understand they are only rarely approved. I like this better than registered=active.

[ronin718]

I think it works fairly well. There is occasionally a reason for an extension. I understand they are only rarely approved. I like this better than registered=active.

Yes, there are legitimate reasons, and I don't begrudge the boys who have them. It's the ones who sat on their thumbs until they were 17 and then decided "Oh, that looks good on the college application" that get my goat.

I hear you on the registered=active thing. Reminds me of pay-to-play, but you still have to show for that to work. R=A is just wrong and one of my big complaints about LDS Scouting. That's one reason I told our leadership not to register my son in their unit. It's a paper unit with no action, and I didn't see the need to participate in the farce.

[kwildman]

I think it works fairly well. There is occasionally a reason for an extension. I understand they are only rarely approved. I like this better than registered=active.

Yes, there are legitimate reasons, and I don't begrudge the boys who have them. It's the ones who sat on their thumbs until they were 17 and then decided "Oh, that looks good on the college application" that get my goat.

I hear you on the registered=active thing. Reminds me of pay-to-play, but you still have to show for that to work. R=A is just wrong and one of my big complaints about LDS Scouting. That's one reason I told our leadership not to register my son in their unit. It's a paper unit with no action, and I didn't see the need to participate in the farce.

But the R=A is good in some circumstances. My troop is very active just not all at the same time. My one son plays football and wrestles and my other plays soccer year round. We have scouts involved in lacrosse, tennis, marching band, boys state, track, etc. They keep in touch with their youth and adult leaders. The problem was that we had a couple of over zealous troop committee people whose sons only did scouts that wanted to penalize the other boys for not being "active" enough.

[FrankJ]

I am all about scouting being one component of a complete person. We work around band, sports, etc. I have admiration for the boys juggle multiple activities and make it work. And even the ones that realize that they do not have time for everything and drop scouting. But we have some that only show up for the fun outings, something to further their interest, and never do anything for patrol or troop, those are not active in my book. They may earn a kids award by the rules, and I occasionally hold my nose as it is happening. Fortunately they are gone as soon as the ink is dry on the EBOR. But then I look at the other scouts & scouters that are getting real benefit and go play with them.

[ronin718]

We also have kids who do the sports/band/scholar thing and we have no problem with those part-timers. We even adopted the "full uniform" rule... Full Scout uniform or full activity uniform. Both are fine for troop meetings, just don't mix and match.

It's the ones you rarely see at a single event or meeting that you question why they bother. Maybe it's a parent thing, who knows? It's just hard to take a young man seriously when there is no commitment.

[Nuts4Scouts]

We also have kids who do the sports/band/scholar thing and we have no problem with those part-timers.

It's the ones you rarely see at a single event or meeting that you question why they bother.

It's just hard to take a young man seriously when there is no commitment.

So, it is OK to be a "part-time" Scout if it is for a reason that you approve of? But, if it is for any other reason, then the boy should be tossed to the curb?

In my "glass half full" opinion, if you "rarely" see a Scout, then that means that you DO see him. He does participate in some Scouting stuff. Whenever he is there, he is learning, and growing in the ideals of Scouting.

What is so terrible with that?

Also, please explain to me exactly how a Scout could complete all of the requirements for a rank, especially that of Eagle, without being active at all. How does a Scout earn 21 merit badges without being active?

The Eagle requirements state that a Scout must be "active" in his Troop for six months after reaching the rank of Life Scout. They further state that a Life Scout must serve "actively" for six months in a POR. That's it - six months - even if the boy is a Life Scout for 2 years, and only served "actively" his very first six months as a Life Scout, he has completed that requirement.

If he only shows up sporadically for Scouting stuff for the next 2+ years, and then decides, months before his 18th birthday, to finish his last Eagle requirement of the service project, I say GREAT! Good for him! He finally got motivated to finish this, and accomplish something!

So what if his reasons do not mirror your reasons. He is not you. He is not there for you. You are there because of, and for, him.

[Fred Johnson]

Dang. Dang. I told myself to just say no. I told myself to avoid getting into this any further. Dang. Dang. Dang.

Oh well...

Nuts4Scouts - I agree fully.

I am very, very thankful for the (effectively) "registered = active" rule. It protects scouts from over zealous adult leaders, from leaders blaming scouts for troop problems and from leaders protecting the Eagle rank from "unworthy" scouts. It's just a rank. And, it's impossible to earn Eagle without being very involved with your troop. One year and four months of leadership responsibility. Leading a major service project. 20+ nights of camping. 10+ activities. 21 merit badges. Six SMCs. Six BORs. Many, many more individual specific advancement requirements. If the scout gets all that done ... and he's a registered youth member of the BSA, he's earned his Eagle rank.

I don't mind if the scout does most of it when he's 11, 12 and 13 years old, gets involved in non-scouting activities for a few years and then earns Eagle when he's 17. He's earned it just as much.

I don't mind if the scout isn't the Normal Rockwell picture of an Eagle scout. We're all very different people and variety is the spice of life.

I don't mind if the scout moves on after earning Eagle rank. Maybe, he's gotten as much out of scouts as he can.

When I first saw the BSA Boy Scout advancement "active" definition, I was surprised. Now that I've seen it in action for several years, I am very very thankful. Especially thankful as I've used it to prevent our troop from making bad decisions. I think of it as yet another form of "youth protection".

I've probably just ignited a hornet's nest. My apologies. I just agree with the current "active" definition.

[smtroop168]

The Active and POR requirements for the senior ranks have caused pain and consternation for awhile. When the BSA went to the R=A it basically sanctioned the "phantom scout" syndrome. At the time when many unit leaders would like to have their older boys help the younger ones they vanish only to reappear "to get my Eagle" and this drives us crazy. As frustrating as it is, we put up with it because we know the long term value of the program but it can also become a standard practice of all your older guys.

Back in the day, the requirement was "Participation" and Scout had to show to the satisfaction of their leaders that they were active in meetings, activities and service projects and dependable in his unit obligations.

Very soon, the new GTA will bring a version to that approach back as part of the criteria for meeting the Active and POR requirements when the scout is "not around much."

[FrankJ]

I am sorry. I do not see how some one can be totally not there and get any benefit from the program.

In our unit, it would be possible to earn 21 merit badges without ever attending troop meeting since, having trained leadership, we do not do merit badges at troop meetings. Merit badges are largely an individual experience. Admittedly the scout would have to show up to turn in & pull blue cards. PORs can be very minimally done since by the rules, unless you remove a scout from a POR, they get credit for it regardless of how well the job was performed. I am not going to start a weekly check list to see if you keep you POR this week. I understand that things got that way from people on the other extreme. I would like to see the pendulum more in the middle.

We have had scouts move away from the program, come back towards the end, and reengage. I am good with that. We have a number of scouts to make eagle that are not your Norman Rockwell types. I am good with that as well. In some ways I am more impressed by the additional challenges they had. The ones that irritate me are the ones that want something for nothing.

As I said before, these are the minority, I do not worry about much.

[Fred Johnson]

I am sorry. I do not see how some one can be totally not there and get any benefit from the program.
In our unit, it would be possible to earn 21 merit badges without ever attending troop meeting since, having trained leadership, we do not do merit badges at troop meetings

"Totally not there" is an absolutist position. Scouts rarely reflect absolutes. But ... the only way a scout could advance and "totally not be there" is if the troop enabled the situation. If so, it's unfair to hold it against him after the fact. With that said, I've never seen a scout who advances who's "totally not there". You have to be there to get BORs and SMCs. You have to be there to know what's going on so you can camp "20 nights" at a scout event for the camping merit badge. You have to have many many advancement requirements learned, tested and signed off in the book. Hard to do that if your "totally not there".

Yeah, we have trained leadership too and don't do merit badge classes either. We do use "Troop Program Features" volumes, 1, 2 & 3 but even then few merit badges are ever earned during troop meetings.

I will admit we've had one Eagle scout who didn't make regular meetings and who was very "maternally driven" to advance. But we were lucky that he was very involved the first two years, did many high adventures with us and did real work for his PORs. But you couldn't drag him to yet another district camporee or anything resembling a routine camp out. And to be honest, I fully understand and respect that. If a youth has been at one or two district camporees, there is not much to look forward to in future ones.

Very soon, the new GTA will ....

The teases are getting really old. I hope the darn thing is published soon so that everyone can move on.