Time extensions to complete Eagle requirements

[smtroop168]

Very soon, the new GTA will ....

The teases are getting really old. I hope the darn thing is published soon so that everyone can move on.

Sorry..release is not under my control. Marrying up the release of the GTA and new EWB is easier said than done.

[Fred Johnson]

smtroop168 - I know. I should have put a smilie face or something next to my comment. It's been a long, long time since the updated ACPP was pulled off the shelf. I just want to move onto the new advancements whatever they are. Thanks!

[FrankJ]

OK replace the totally not there with minimally there. Doesn't change my point.They conform the the minimal standard and get a patch and something to put on a resume. That is not the point of the program. At this point I am going to agree to disagree. I am occasionally guilty of beating dead horses.

[smtroop168]

OK replace the totally not there with minimally there. Doesn't change my point.They conform the the minimal standard and get a patch and something to put on a resume. That is not the point of the program. At this point I am going to agree to disagree. I am occasionally guilty of beating dead horses.

A key requirement in Horsemanship MB which follows the "Horse you rode in on" requirement. Both of these requirements are routinely done at Roundtables.

[smtroop168]

smtroop168 - I know. I should have put a smilie face or something next to my comment. It's been a long, long time since the updated ACPP was pulled off the shelf. I just want to move onto the new advancements whatever they are. Thanks!

I'm trying to figure out how much time I'm going to be answering GTA questions once it is released. Who knows, I may pass Wagion in all time total postings.

[ronin718]

So, it is OK to be a "part-time" Scout if it is for a reason that you approve of? But, if it is for any other reason, then the boy should be tossed to the curb?

Who said anything about tossing the boy to the curb? And who said anything about MY approval? It's not my call. But as with many things in life, I don't have to like the scenario, I just have to deal with it. You may have your opinion, I can have mine, and neither have to meet.

Also, please explain to me exactly how a Scout could complete all of the requirements for a rank, especially that of Eagle, without being active at all. How does a Scout earn 21 merit badges without being active?

FrankJ explained this one pretty well, and I'll take it a step further. At the three-year mark after my son had crossed over, he had 40 MBs including all the necessary Eagle required badges. Our troop does NO merit badge nights. All MBs are earned either through summer camp or individual initiative. He could do this with no troop meeting attendance. He could have the POR of OA rep, and not attend a single meeting, but he'd get the time credit. He could work his entire ESLSP without attending a single meeting. Other service project time could be done without attending a meeting. He could do his EDGE training by having a boy come to his house. There is no requirement after First Class that the Scout attend a single campout, so no restrictions there. Meet with the SM and then do the BoR, and BOOM!!! You've got a Star, Life, or Eagle Scout with minimal troop participation, certainly not 16 months worth.

Possible scenario?? Yes. Likely to happen?? I hope not!!! Fred covers a lot of the supposed hurdles to prevent such a scenario, but as he said, a lot of the requirements can be covered in the first couple of years. After that, the boy can coast through the process. All those skills being signed off happens in the first year. There's not much to the sign-off process once you start on Star.

The Eagle requirements state that a Scout must be "active" in his Troop for six months after reaching the rank of Life Scout. They further state that a Life Scout must serve "actively" for six months in a POR. That's it - six months - even if the boy is a Life Scout for 2 years, and only served "actively" his very first six months as a Life Scout, he has completed that requirement.

If he only shows up sporadically for Scouting stuff for the next 2+ years, and then decides, months before his 18th birthday, to finish his last Eagle requirement of the service project, I say GREAT! Good for him! He finally got motivated to finish this, and accomplish something!

The LDS folks get asked a great question during annual interviews. "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellow man?" I find it interesting that the key word in that question is missing from Scouting's list of principles. We're Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent. We're Prepared, we Do Good Turns Daily. We promise On our Honor to do our best to do our duty to God and our Country, to help other people at all times, to keep ourselves Physically Strong, Mentally Awake, and Morally Straight. But never do we see or use the word HONEST.

And right there is the great loophole that allows our young men to advance without being ACTIVE. Our young men are ACTIVE in school, in their sports teams, in many other events. But their Scouting activity is slipping as these other things come into their lives. But because they're REGISTERED, they're considered active, and so we hand them their advancements because they've checked the other boxes. HONESTLY???

As for Fred's comment about the youth "gotten as much out of scouts as he can". I always thought part of Scouting was Service. My definition of Service is giving, not getting. If the Scout in question "does most of it when he's 11, 12 and 13 years old, gets involved in non-scouting activities for a few years and then earns Eagle when he's 17", how has he "earned it just as much" as the boy who has participated and served the entire time?

Dang, I'm a cynic today!! Like FrankJ, I'll just have to agree to disagree with the policy. I might have to live with it, but I sure don't have to like it. I'll just go out and try to work with the boys and encourage them to stay HONESTLY active.

Oh, and my son??? Eagle, four palms, 15 y/o, and slated to work on six merit badges next week at camp. We have a rule in our house for him. He can keep doing Scouting as long as he continues to serve, lead, and stay active in the troop. There is no coasting allowed...

[wagionvigil]

active is being adjusted

[international]

I'd love to see the letter your council sent to National on this. Email it to me if you would be so kind.

I am having difficulty e-mailing directly from this site... any ideas?

[FrankJ]

I am having difficulty e-mailing directly from this site... any ideas?

The email button brings up your computer's default email program. If you access email through a web site and do use an email program, windows will typically try to start outlook express.

Try right clicking on the email button and select copy email address from the menu that pops up. Right click and paste that into the to section of your email.

[international]

I just want to add that none of my sons (I have 2 more almost Eagle) are on the "non active scouts status" (maybe that helped??!).
They all attend 98% of the meetings,they all participate 100% in all Troop fundraisers, never had a problem with completing and exceeding the service hrs. part of the program and I'll say their camping activity is probably around 90%, including 1 over seas Summer camp (with my old scouts Troop since it is co-ed) and my son in question also was part of the Troop that went to the 100 year Scouting Celebration In England.

Yes,time management was something that was definitely lacking, but not because of inactivity, but because for my oldest son, rank advancement was never high in his priorities. He enjoyed SCOUTING period... actually he will be studying Entomology at Purdue this Fall (full academic scholarship ) because he learned to LOVE bugs in scouting.... How cool is that?

[ronin718]

See??? Scouts can be active in school, sports, and Scouts at the same time. AWESOME!!!!

[international]

I am having difficulty e-mailing directly from this site... any ideas?

The email button brings up your computer's default email program. If you access email through a web site and do use an email program, windows will typically try to start outlook express.

Try right clicking on the email button and select copy email address from the menu that pops up. Right click and paste that into the to section of your email.

Got it now! but before I do that... this is not against any BSA policy right?(don't take it the wrong way pls.), I just don't want to jeopardize my boys future in Scouts.

[FrankJ]

Got it now! but before I do that... this is not against any BSA policy right?(don't take it the wrong way pls.), I just don't want to jeopardize my boys future in Scouts.

If you are under 13, you should not be here, but that is the webmaster's policy, not BSA's.
If you are a youth, copy the email to an adult you trust. Not really required but a good idea.
If you are an adult and communicating with another adult (as Smtroop168 is), it is not a BSA issue.
This is not an official BSA website. so BSA policy only applies to the extent the webmaster requires.

Sorry I miss read your question. This is not particularly controversial so unless so unless there is something on the letter making it confidential, I do not see an issue. BSA typically does not hold the actions of adults against the youth anyway.

[smtroop168]

I am having difficulty e-mailing directly from this site... any ideas?

The email button brings up your computer's default email program. If you access email through a web site and do use an email program, windows will typically try to start outlook express.

Try right clicking on the email button and select copy email address from the menu that pops up. Right click and paste that into the to section of your email.

Got it now! but before I do that... this is not against any BSA policy right?(don't take it the wrong way pls.), I just don't want to jeopardize my boys future in Scouts.

Take off any names from the correspondence before sending if that makes you more comfortable. I am on the National review commitee rewriting the Advancement Policy book and your situation can be used as an example on how appeals are generated and reviewed. We have spent sometime looking at how we can write the procedures to keep scouts from being treated unfairly or what they can do if they are not given correct information. On the flip side, we are also looking at what language could be in there to place responsibility on the scout as well.

[FrankJ]

The horse moved! I saw it! I do not usually do cross posts, but this is a perfect example of a train wreck and how a minimally involved scout can earn a cloth patch. Admittedly an extreme case would not have happen if the adults were not asleep at the switch, but non of us is perfect, and we are volunteers. Also it points out that you need to do your quality control on an ongoing bases, and do not expect council or national to do your job for you.

This is from the scouts-l mail list, which makes it public information. I do not have personal information about this, but have no reason to think it false.

A few years back a scout in my troop was awarded Eagle at a Council Appeal.
He was denied Eagle at his Board of Review because of his own admission he
never, ever held a Position of Responsibility in the troop. That's correct,
you read it right. Besides being the District Advancement Chairman I was
also the Troop Committee Chairman. I refused to sign his Eagle Application
and I told him why and wrote my reasons to the Board of Review. He was in
the troop 71/2 years, never attended summer camp, attended maybe three
campouts, total, would not show up to meetings for a year at a time,
participated in nothing. The Scoutmaster had no backbone to take a stand on
this and kept signing him (fictitious Positions of Responsibility) off
figuring sooner or later he'll go away. Well, he didn't and I kept telling
the Scoutmaster that.

At his Eagle BoR when he was asked about his PoS he just gave a blank stare
and said he didn't do anything and never heard of the position. They asked
him about his PoS's for Star and Life, and again the same response. They
listed all the different PoS's and asked if he did any of them and he said,
"no". They looked at the Scoutmaster and he just shrugged his shoulders.
The BoR denied him Eagle because of never having held a PoS. They were
going to address how he obtained Camping Merit Badge with only six nights of
camping but they never got that far. It was a mute issue anyway because the
counselor signed the card so he "has" it. As District Advancement Chairman
I removed that individual as a merit badge counselor.

At an appeal hearing convened by the Council Advancement Committee they
"gave" this scout Eagle, because his Scoutmaster signed off that he
completed the Positions of Responsibility. At complete travesty, but that
is how it is. This issue was brought up at one of the Advancement Committee
Seminars and the individuals from the National Advancement Committee said it
was good that the Council Appeal Committee gave it to him because if they
didn't, National would of. One of the comments stated at the seminar was:
"If a scout does not succeed, more times than not it's because of a
breakdown in the troop leadership." Do you believe that? A scout is never
responsible or culpable for doing the requirements.

[smtroop168]

An interesting case that would have possibly been handled differently today. Most likely back a few years ago, the BOR had to vote yea or nay at an EBOR and if nay, it would go to appeal. If the unit dorked it up, the scout would win as happened. Today, if the EBOR decides to not advance, they have an option to suspend the BOR and they can bring the scout in and discuss what he needs to do to correct any areas the BOR felt he didn't meet the requirements. Of course he can still appeal and possibly the result would be the same.

The Camping MB may also have been done differently because even though the MB was signed off, if there was proof from the troop records that he didn't meet the requirements, it could have been part of the BOR package to council. Doesn't appear that it was even discussed at the BOR so it's moot as far as the reason for the not advancing decision. Rare, yes but has been done.


"From the 12 Steps:
If the candidate does not meet the requirements, he is asked to return and told the reasons for
his failure to qualify. A discussion should be held with him as to how he may meet the requirements within a given period. Should the applicant disagree with the decision, the appeal procedures should be explained
to him. A follow-up letter must be sent to the Scout confirming the agreements reached on the action(s) necessary for the advancement. If the Scout chooses to appeal, the board should provide the name and
address of the person he is to contact. (See ‘‘Appealing a Decision” in Advancement Committee Policies and Procedures, No. 33088.)"


What happens is that units do not address these things when the scout goes up to Star and Life and get them corrected. The Star and Life BORs are also at fault here although the SM is the biggest failure. Many councils hold Life to Eagle sessions but some say they should be 1st Class to Eagle seminars and REQUIRE attendance of the scout, parents and unit leaders.

[ronin718]

This is from the scouts-l mail list, which makes it public information. I do not have personal information about this, but have no reason to think it false.

Uhhh..... WOW!!!!

That horse not only moved, it got up and kicked me in the gut. UNBELIEVABLE!!!

[Fred Johnson]

..., but this is a perfect example of a train wreck and how a minimally involved scout can earn a cloth patch. ...

... This issue was brought up at one of the Advancement Committee Seminars and the individuals from the National Advancement Committee said it was good that the Council Appeal Committee gave it to him because if they didn't, National would of. One of the comments stated at the seminar was: "If a scout does not succeed, more times than not it's because of a breakdown in the troop leadership." Do you believe that? A scout is never responsible or culpable for doing the requirements.

Is this a good example? I don't know. Extreme cases make poor rules.

I fully agree that problems are often because of a "breakdown of troop leadership". Both directions. Too much. Too little. Too zealous. Too inexperienced. In this specific case, how the heck could a scoutmaster sign off on PORs without the scout having had them? That's lying. A horrible example and a horrible precident. BUT ... he signed off. It's a done deal at that point. I also have trouble with the merit badge counselors, not just the camping one. And I'm sure parents were an issue on this one too.

But, I have no problem with how the council and/or national handled this. It's a no-brainer. They are looking at legitimately signed off, unit leader approved advancement paperwork. Should the scoutmaster have signed off on the advancements over the years? Absolutely not. BUT HE DID. It's done. Should you expect the council or national to get into a brew-ha-ha over an individual scout rank? Absolutely not. It's just a rank. I'd be upset if the council or national spent any FOS money (labor) on the issue. The BSA objectives state nothing about guarding the integrity of the Eagle brotherhood. That's just a bunch of COH BS. It's just a rank used in the advancement program. The important objectives are citizenship, character and physical fitness.

What I care about are the life lessons taught by this mess and the lost opportunities to teach others. But to try to teach those at the end of the path is wrong and unfair. Of course the scout is responsible for his own advancement, but the unit leadership has responsibility to support every scout's advancement. The leadership needs to apply the requirements as written. No more. No less.

To be honest, this is the first time I've heard of a completely undeserving scout get Eagle. I've heard of many "debatable" situations. But usually, it's the other way around. Scouts missing Eagle because the troop has BOR's every three months and the time delay for the last two BOR's push him over age 18. Or the troop has "special processes" such as requiring a scouting resume at BORs. Or the scoutmaster who passes the scout on five SMCs but then brings up issues at the Eagle SMC.

[FrankJ]

Actually I was putting this forth as a bad example. I agree this is a bad case to make policy on. You should set policy for the normal and have flexibility for the outliers. I also agree you cannot revisit the Life and Star ranks and hold the scout responsible for that at the EBOR. But at the very least they should have told him that he needed a POR for the Eagle rank and to come back when he has done that. Maybe he was too close to 18 for that to be possible.

The important objectives are citizenship, character and physical fitness.

That was totally missed in this case. Well at least 2 out of 3. Sometimes you should just say sorry your troop completely let you down, do not get me started on your troop leadership, but you still have more to do to earn the patch.

If it's any consolation to you, you apparently have national on your side.

[Fred Johnson]

If it's any consolation to you, you apparently have national on your side.

Oh great, the same people who won't let scouts play laser tag.