"Troop Meeting Plans" Use or not use?

[ICanCanoeCanU]

With the new influx of adult leadership in our troop. The new SM is insisting on using the document "Troop Meeting Plan" each and every week. With the exception of the new boys that came in with these new adults, the previous boys in the troop are so bored with this routine. The new SM insists on having the "Skills Instruction" be for the new boys to learn early rank requirements which usually caries over into the "Patrol Meeting" portion. The "Interpatrol Activity" is always dodgeball as this is the only thing still keeping the oldest crew involved in coming to meetings. I've tried relentlessly to remind the SM that the SPL should be planning the meetings and they do not need to follow this document to the T each week. He disagrees and says that's what he learned in training and the new boys need the focus.

I know long explanation but my question is - (and this may start another string) do most troops use this document and if so, what activities do you do during the "Patrol Meeting" and Interpatrol Activity" timeframe?

[ASM-142]

He disagrees and says that's what he learned in training

He should of also learned in training the the meetings are planned by the PLC.

[teepeeayy]

I'm not sure if you'll get the SM to change his ways, and let the boys do the planning. Maybe someone can recommend a web site, or have him work his way into the forums here.

I'd try to get the older boys to hold those "instructional" times. Maybe make it a competition between a couple of small groups: small first aid meet, who can put up a tent faster, fire building (always a challenge indoors ), pioneering project, plant and/or animal identification, camp gadgets.....holy cow, the list goes on!

Just got to get the SM to go along.

[OldGreyBear]

I agree with the Scoutmaster that says the new boys need the focus, and in fact, I beleive the BSA feels the same way, they have something called the new scout program. Where I differ from the aforementioned scoutmaster is that the new scout program is not suppsoed to be the only focus of the troop. Your new new scout program should be going on at the same time as the program for the experienced scouts. Thats why an ASM needs to oversee the new scout program, to allow the SM to watch over the troop program, as planned by the PLC of course

[RWSmith]

If I understand this correctly, the 'Troop Meeting Plan' is a format, nothing more than a canned Agenda, which, in and of itself, is worthless. However, the PLC may want to consider adopting the 'Troop Progam Features' which, actually plugs different subject matter into the same format every week. See here... http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/about/proghelps.html. No more Dodge ball... week, after week, after week.

Troop Program Features
Boys' Life and Scouting Magazines: Your Program Assistants

Besides offering their readers entertaining, well-written fare, Boys' Life and Scouting magazines support the nationally suggested Boy Scout troop program features. In each monthly issue, Boys' Life provides ideas and inspiration to boy readers about how they can enjoy the BSA-suggested program for the following month. Scouting magazine provides adult leaders similar tools to strengthen the BSA program with special articles of packs and troops that have used the monthly program feature successfully.

In addition, five of the six issues of Scouting magazine that are sent to Boy Scout unit leaders and commissioners each year contain a total of 12 segments called "Troop Program Features." The 12 program features are selected from the contents of the three volumes of Troop Program Features (Supply Nos. 33110, 33111, and 33112), each of which contains a year's worth of monthly programs, including meeting outlines and a schedule for a suggested monthly outing or activity.

Schedule for 2004-2005 Troop Program Feature supplements to be bound into issues of Scouting magazine:
Issue of Scouting Program Feature Suggested month for program

March-April 2004 Leadership May 2004
-- Special Cooking June 2004
-- Backpacking July 2004
-- Aquatics August 2004

May-June 2004 Introduction and Fishing September 2004
-- Athletics October 2004

September 2004 Science November 2004
-- Cooking December 2004

Nov-Dec 2004 Wilderness Survival January 2005
-- Citizenship February 2005

Jan-Feb 2005 Pioneering March 2005
-- Environment April 2005

March-April 2005 Orienteering May 2005
-- Mechanics June 2005
-- Hiking July 2005
-- Shooting August 2005

[eagleat127]

Hi I'm new, and I have to say that I love these forums. It's great to get the opinion of people the country (and most likely world) over. I am currently in the process (and have been for more then 2 years) of trying to get my troop running correctly. This brings up alot of issues that I will try to ask if I cannot find them already answered somewhere in these forums.
I am adding to this forum because I do not think the original question was ever answered. That being, “do most troops use this document and if so, what activities do you do during the "Patrol Meeting" and Interpatrol Activity" timeframe?”
I try to use the troop meeting plan to chart my meetings, but I run into the same basic problems ICanCannoe does in that our patrol meetings last about a minute or two before becoming “out of control”. The only time any sort of meeting occurs is when they need to plan a menu. And I’m actually trying to get each PL to assign a grubmaster to plan their menus so that this isn’t taking up meeting time (I don’t think committee planning really helps the menu process). I am wondering what other troops (that use this agenda) do during their patrol meetings.
In this post I am asking for ideas for the patrol meetings only (I’ll ask about IPA in another post for simplicity sake), just as I THINK ICan was. What I saw here were suggestions for the instruction part of the meeting.
When I bought “troop program features” I thought it would have suggestion for the PM, but it mostly says “review what the patrol will do on the campout.” What does that mean. Our boys barely know who is going two weeks prior to the campout let alone a full month. Also 3 to 5 months we have indoor camping because of the cold.
I’ll try to start the ball rolling by telling what I try to get them to do now and what I am thinking of trying.
Make menus, make duty rosters, collect money for outings, talk about advancement, talk about what happened at the PLC, gather info for the PLC.
I am thinking of maybe giving them a monthly project to work on like making a knot board, or even a large (but doable) construction project like a foosball table. They would only work on it 20 minutes a week, but it would bring them together as a patrol.
Sorry about the long post I’ll try to do better in the future, but this part of the meeting really is a major sticking point for me in the quest to revive my troop.

[wagionvigil]

Welcome to the forum. We are experiencing some posting problems at this time but hopefully soo will be corrected

[West]

Also 3 to 5 months we have indoor camping because of the cold

Get them outside, the kids are tougher then that.

On the bigger topic. The troop meeting plan is absolutely a good idea. Useing it dosn't prevent the SPL and PLC from planning the meeting, it only gives them a guideline to follow to insure they meet the goals of the program. All it is a guide, you still have to find the right things to plug into the slots. Skills instruction is an absolute must, have diffrent skills for the old and new guys, or have the older guys teach. That will be much more effective then dodgeball for retaining guys in the long run. And it has the added bennifit of being scouting.

On the Patrol meeting, remember it dosn't always have to be a full 20 miniutes. However if you are an active troop they will need that 20 miniutes most weeks (expecally new guys who haven't gotten used to doing what they need to do). Menu by commite isn't efficient, but it's part of the learning process for the kids. Same with the duty roster. Each patrol should be responsible for it's own equipment. Patrol meeting time can be used for repair and maintanince if any is needed. If they didn't do a good enough job on the dishes on the last campout (it happens sometimes) have them use patrol meeting time to finish them up. They can make a list of equipment they need/want for the patrol and what the priority is, as well as ways to get the money for it. Patrol activities (above and beyond that the troop does) are always a possibility, and take the same level of planning and more as a troop trip. They could use the time to practice more skills, or review what they are going to be teaching the newer guys. There shouldn't be any shortage of things that need to be done.

The interpatrol activity should be something just for fun. Sometimes it could be dodgeball. Sometimes it could be some sort of game that uses scout skills, or a problem solving game of some sort.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Thanks for the various pieces all. I was actually looking for feedback from troops on whether or not they use this document to plan their meetings.

As for your suggestions Bob, I agree but see the problem is that the SM only wants to focus on each requirement needed up to first class, to implement the FYFC program. My problem (and the SPL's too) is that the new SM only looks at what the new boys need and makes that the focus of every meeting. The older boys are asked to help the younger boys and as far as the dodge ball - that IS the only thing holding the older boys attention. I've tried reminding the SM that the older boys need a program too but he feels that once a boy reached First Class, they really just need to finish badges and he doesn't care what they do at meetings, so long as they don't cause trouble. My objection about using the "Troop meeting Plan" document is that our troop use to use an entire hour with more variety such as competions setting ups tents, pioneering events, etc. as others mentioned above. This way the younger scouts were learning, even if one meeting didn't complete an entire requirement and the older boys were much more interested. Amazing how a competion can spark boys at this age. The older boys were more enthusiastic when showing the younger scouts cause the whole feeling was different. Now they complain that their only purpose is to teach and they resent it. When the older boys try to plan a meeting, the SM wants to know what requirement the younger boys will earn. I'm giving up with the entire thing?

[West]

Well, just remind him that is a part for older scouts in the Skills instruction portion. They still get to learn too (strange how that works). The older guys should be teachers, but it shouldn't be their only role. Try orginizing them as a Venture patrol (note that it's diffrent then a venture crew). Then they can do some crazy cool trips that will help keep them involved, and give the younger guys a reason to stick around as long as the other guys did.

[eagleat127]

Hello again. Thank you everyone for your feedback. I would like to address ICanCanoe’s issues as he started this thread.
First off this is the second time I read you say you were giving up, and I really hope you don’t mean it. Quitting is seldom the answer. About 4 years ago I realized that the troop I grew up in was falling apart. I was still involved, but I didn’t realize it was happening until then. When I was SPL between 10 and 14 years ago we had 40 or more scouts, and almost every month we had a campout (or event) attended by 20 or more interested scouts. 4 years ago we only took 12 boys to summer camp and I knew that there was a problem. The troop actually shrank all the way down to four boys before I finally turned it around (I hope) and we are currently at fourteen active scouts. During these years I endured more heartache and failures then I care to think about, but now I couldn’t be happier I didn’t give up. So fight the good fight hang in there and I am sure you’ll be glad you do.
My suggestion to you is that if you feel so strongly that the older boys need a program more geared towards them, then start one. If you look in the Troop Program Features you’ll see that it suggests three separate instruction session at one time, and so there is your reasoning to show your SM. I personally disagree with this because I see no reason that new scouts can’t learn right along with the old, but I your case I think it the best chance you have. Find out what they’re interested in and teach what you can, or bring in a guest speaker if you can’t.
I know the older boys need to help the new kids, but they shouldn’t be punished for be older. Few boys will outright rebel against this (I’m surprised that some actually said they resent their position of teacher or is this just a feeling you get), but a lot will simply stop coming and I think that should be avoided no matter what. Scouting is too good a program for a boy to quit just because the SM doesn’t know how to treat them.
There are two things I think people forget when putting together a program.
1) kids can quit, it’s not like school where they have to come everyday and do what you ask. The quickest way to prove this is to bore or ignore them.
2) scouting isn’t about learning to camp. That’s the hook that Baden used to get boys interested in scouting, and the ranks through 1st class help make you a better camper so you can enjoy the experience of camping more. The purpose of scouting is to turn boys into responsible adults using this hook. I hardly ever use the knots I learned in scouting, but I use the leadership skills I gained there daily.
I am not saying that the early skills are unimportant. First aid, fire safety, orienteering, and the rest are great skills to have in life, but they shouldn’t taught to the exclusion of anyone.
The best way I could think of the rectify the "program for older boys/older boys should be teaching" problem I am currently testing in my troop. First we have pregame. Then we start the meeting. Then we have skill instruction for all. Then (here’s the trick) we split into patrols, the older boys do patrol meetings, but the new scout patrol learns a scout skill. Then Game and closing.
This last week for example I taught part of the aviation merit badge, then during the patrol meeting the troop guide took the new scouts through what they had to do to get their scout badge.
Also need to add that a lot of the early rank requirements are best taught at campouts so I plan to wait until the boys are having some down time next weekend and then say, “Hey Sammy why don’t you and Andy take the new boys and test them on their physical fitness?”
This may be a radicle change from what most troops do, but I think it will work. It’s also the reason I asked what other troops do during the PM as I would like to keep the older boy busy while the young ones learn. I’ll let you know how it works out.
In closing (finally) to ICanCanoe: The next time you feel like giving up just think about what scouting can offer to the older boys in your troop and you'll realize that it will be worth it.

[West]

2) scouting isn’t about learning to camp. That’s the hook that Baden used to get boys interested in scouting, and the ranks through 1st class help make you a better camper so you can enjoy the experience of camping more. The purpose of scouting is to turn boys into responsible adults using this hook. I hardly ever use the knots I learned in scouting, but I use the leadership skills I gained there daily.

I think of camping more as a tool then a hook. Learning to camp isn't the goal, you're absolutely correct on that much. But camping provides an exellent setting and oppertunity to teach the leadership and citizenship skills that are our goal. In fact I really can't think of any better setting.

[commish3]

I think the agenda established by the troop meeting plan is a good one. It has all the elements needed for an active meeting and its time allowance are short enough for a scout age boy to function comfortably.

I think Icancanoe is right that the experienced scouts need a different program than the one established by the First Class Emphasis Program (First Class First Year is a certificate not the program plan, a common confusion for some reason). Where the troop seems to be heading down the wrong rode is that the two programs (the one for the new scouts and the one for the experienced scouts) need to be separate. The Scoutmaster cannot give all his attention to either but must stand far enough back to be able to evaluate and adjust both. This realization needs to come from the Scoutmaster. If he or she does not understand and accept the leadership structure of scouting after attending training then it is unlikely they will change at your request.

[eagleat127]

Thank you West I couldn’t agree more about the opportunities that camping gives us, especially when the patrol method BP gave us is used to its fullest.

I think the point of this thread can be boiled down to this, “How do we teach the new boys first class skills while keeping the older boys involved with the troop.”

To use my troop as an example we have 9 established boys, 2 around second class, and 3 who will attend their second meeting Thursday. If we run the skill instruction around the 5 boys that need first class stuff even on a one to one basis we will have four boys with nothing to do. There are fluctuations in these numbers from week to week of course due to attendance and the need for established scout to relearn forgotten skill, but the point is that I cannot see building the meeting around 3 boys at the expense of 11 who put their time in and want to move on. The only alternative offered by Troop Program Features is to split them up.

My question for commish3 then is, “Why ‘the two programs ... need to be separate.’?” In a way I wonder how they can be. I ask why because I wonder why you (and the BSA) think the new scouts shouldn’t benefit from what the older boys are learning. The how involves the idea of a boy taught troop. Should the troop guide not get the benefits of the older scout program, because he is busy teaching the younger scouts during that time. The BSA can’t be suggesting that adults teach three separate skill instruction sessions every meeting, but if the older boys teach the younger then they miss their own presentation. I have stated my plan to remedy this, what do you do.

As for ICanCanoe’s troop as I said for the sake of progress he may have to change to completely separate instruction sessions. Again I must urge him not to give up, or simply request the scoutmaster change his ways. If he felt strongly enough about this issue to start this post then he has a problem that should be fixed. If the SM won’t listen to him then he needs to get the older boys together and confront him as a group, and if that doesn’t work he needs to take them and go troop shopping. I say again that Scouting is too good a program for a boy to quit just because the SM doesn’t know how to treat them.

Please don’t think I am trying to be sarcastic here. I really am asking why and how. If my method has no hope of working I would much rather learn why here then in three months at the expense of the boys in my troop. If your troop has method that works I would love to incorporate it into our troop. Every troop is different, but I think we can help each other out anyway.

[Lynda J]

Our PLC uses program book as guide and nothing more. They may plan things around it or not. But they are the ones that plan. As adults we may present ideas but it is up to them. So many SM forget that this programs goal is to teach boys to take more responsibility. Unless they are allowed mistakes they can't do that. This past weekend one patrol planned cereal for breakfast, ham sandwiches for lunch and grilled cheese for super. We were camping an hiking. They complained that they didn't have enough to eat. They were ask who planned their menus. They admitted they did. No don't get me wrong. they did not go hungery. But when ask what they would do different next camping trip. Almost with one voice they said plan better meals. They learned. So we will see what they plan for the camping trip in two weeks. (we have camped three times in the last 6 weeks.) And we have one more. (Love it.)
In my opinion the plan is a tool to be used as an aid. Not as the solid rule.

[West]

Well, we don't leave the teaching up to only the Troop Guide. We have one guy responsible for makeing sure everyone knows their knots and lashings, another is in charge of teaching first aid, etc.

The skills instruction dosn't always have to be seperate, but it should be a good portion of the time. The reason for this is pretty simple, the new guys need to learn their beggining skills before they can move on to something more advanced. If you keep the older guys back and on the begginer skills all the time they never learn anything new. It's also very important to remember that the skills instruction does not have to be limited only to passing requirements or MBs (for old or new guys) sometimes the kids might just want to learn how to do something that's related to the scouting program.

Where possible, our SPL tries to keep to skill sessions related. For example, tonight our new guys and visiting webelos are going to be working on lashings. While they are doing that, the older guys are going to build a bridge. When the new guys show that they have picked up on how to do the lashings, they will get to come over and help the older guys.

This will give the older guys something intresting to do, while practing the lashings. And the younger guys will see that they do have a use, beyond haveing to learn them to pass some requirements for a rank.

[eagleat127]

I realize everyone is just trying to do what they can to help each other, but Lynda what did your post have to do with this thread? Alright the first 2 sentences and the last 2 sentences about the plan being used as a guide did, but the rest seemed to just criticize troops that aren’t completely boy run. I assure you that having a boy run troop is my goal, and that I have run into many problems getting there. Eventually I may post on the subject, but there are already a few post around here to help me with that problem. This is all I will say on that subject here. My questions deal with the meetings and how other troops structure them.

Again I don’t mean to insult anyone, but I would like to keep to one topic at a time so that I can solve the problem and move on. As I go around these forums there seems to be a trend of someone asking a question and getting at least one response that says “the boys should be running the troop”. I know this, everyone that bothers to look at this forum probably knows it. And I don’t think it helps anyone to criticize the way their troop runs instead of (or even in addition to) answering the questions they ask.

Thank you again West. What does your TG do, or don't you use one? As for the different guys for different skills we always called them instructors. I was thinking we didn’t have anyone really skilled enough to be one (or they already had a position), but you got me thinking that maybe if we sat a few the boys down and said, “you will be instructor for this skill.” then they would study said skill hard enough to do the job.
I truly don’t understand why the new kids and/or the troop guide (or instructor) should miss out on the program put together for the older boys a good portion of the time. Also I think that if it’s something related to scouting then there’s a merit badge for it .

As I said earlier my idea is to try to incorporate the new scout patrol program the BSA sometimes promotes. The new scouts will be put in their own patrol, and as such have no part in the regular patrol meeting instead they will learn first class skills then. This will allow them learn both things. The only rub I can think of is that the instruction must be interesting or the boys will lose interest, but that always true. We’ll have to agree to differ here for now, and I’ll report how things work out.

Having said that I think the part about the related skills sessions is a great idea no matter how you do it . I think what I’ll try to do is switch the patrol meeting and skill instruction around. While the older kids have their PM the new kids can learn a skill, then the troop wide SI will allow both groups to put there skills to use .

[commish3]

Eaggle writes

"My question for commish3 then is, “Why ‘the two programs ... need to be separate.’?” In a way I wonder how they can be. I ask why because I wonder why you (and the BSA) think the new scouts shouldn’t benefit from what the older boys are learning. The how involves the idea of a boy taught troop. Should the troop guide not get the benefits of the older scout program, because he is busy teaching the younger scouts during that time. "

Keep in mind that out of 7.5 years in the troop, Scouts are only in a New Scout Patrol for one. So yes the BSA has for years had a program designed that can operate on multiple skill levels to meet the skill and activity needs of scouts as they age.

The needs and abilities of a first year Scout are much different than those of an experienced scout.

The troop guides should be scouts how have already had the benefit of the advanced skills learning and are now ready to teach others. As the Scoutmaster Handbook instructs you, these Troop Guides should also get to participate in the advantures with their peers.

The boys are boy taught. You have the resources of the troop guides and ther trop instructors that can be used throughout the three program levels of the troop.

"The BSA can’t be suggesting that adults teach three separate skill instruction sessions every meeting,"

The BSA to my recollection has never suggested that. It was designed for the adult leaders to use other resources such as community members and the scouts themselves to teach the skills. The role of the adults is as counselors and mentors to guide the Junior Leaders in planning and running the program.

Since there are adult and junior leader positions of responsibility at each troop program level, this task is quite simple. IF you follow the program.

[West]

We do use a troop guide. Their primary responsiblity isn't teaching skills (they do some of that of course), instead they teach the new guys how to be boys scouts. They help the Patol Leader run the patrol meeting, give him feedback on what he does well, and advice on how he can improve areas where he is struggleing. The TG helps with things that seem like they should be simple, but until you've done them a few times arn't. Like makeing a Duty Roster that's fair to everyone, and planning a menu and shopping list. Mostly he reinforces but never undermines the Patrol Leader.

As far as getting more guys to be instructors, you'll find that 99% of the kids will step up when you give them a responsibility. The best part is, not only do the new guys learn, but your older scout will learn a lot too. The best way to learn is to teach.

[West]

I just wanted to add that last nights lashing instruction went over in a huge way. The older guys realized that lashings wern't useless, and the new kids were motivated like crazy to learn so they could go help. They are all pumped to build towers and a nice gateway this summer, one of the dads even offered to let us take some trees off his property (now we just need to figure out how to transport them).

Next week the interpatrol activity is going to be a friction bridge. I let the SPL borrow a bunch of my old books and talked to him about stuff we used to do (he wanted ideas). He's really gone to town with it. I'm very impressed.

As for scouting skills haveing a related merit badge, you're right most of the time. But some of the stuff the guys want to do is well beyond the requirments for any MB, but builds on the basics they learned while doing the MB. If they want to take it farther, learn more, and become more proficient at the skills they already have I'm not going to discourage it.