"Troop Meeting Plans" Use or not use?

[wagionvigil]

On That Note the most visited area in the Action Centers in 2001 was the Pioneering area. Go Figure. I guess the Scouts found out knots and Lashings were cool.

[West]

I went to the cubs meeting tonight to help the kids finish up pinewood cars before saturday.

The Webelos wanted me to help them find another adult and all of them wanted to go to the other room and work on lashings. I was amused, and impressed. They're a lot more excited about practiceing the clove hitch now too.

[eagleat127]

Keep in mind that out of 7.5 years in the troop, Scouts are only in a New Scout Patrol for one.

Maybe your troop has done better but I would guess that more then 90% of the boys who have been in my troop quit well before 7.5 years. Football, girls, high school, and life and general seem to win out more often then not. I am working on that and it's not a point to argue over I’m just sayin’.

The needs and abilities of a first year Scout are much different than those of an experienced scout.

I freely admit (and don’t think anyone could argue) that new scouts have more needs than older boys, but I see little difference in there overall abilities. I am talking about things such as earning merit badges and learning more advanced lashing etc. Not physical stuff like high adventure. I earned my eagle at 12 years and 7 months (hence the moniker) needless to say I had quite a few merit badges under my belt by the end of my first year.

The troop guides should be scouts how have already had the benefit of the advanced skills learning

I just don’t think the learning should stop. Even in 7.5 years you can’t learn everything you need to know.

"The BSA can’t be suggesting that adults teach three separate skill instruction sessions every meeting,"

The BSA to my recollection has never suggested that. It was designed for the adult leaders to use other resources such as community members and the scouts themselves to teach the skills. The role of the adults is as counselors and mentors to guide the Junior Leaders in planning and running the program.

First I must say the quote is mine, but the context is not. To review:

The BSA can’t be suggesting that adults teach three separate skill instruction sessions every meeting, but if the older boys teach the younger then they miss their own presentation.

When I said adults I meant adult leaders and communities members, and as I said “the BSA can’t be suggesting...” As for the scouts themselves teaching the skills in this meeting method they must miss their SI. I want the boys running the instruction for the new scouts, but I simply don’t want them to miss their age group instruction to do so.
Let me use an example. My troop has no high adventure program (I will be posting on this soon as I finish seeing what’s already here) so lets say the boys want to go climbing. If the troop guide is busy with the new patrol then he will miss this instruction and won't be allowed to go climbing.

My plan to remedy this is two fold. Teach the new boys during the PM and on campouts. Will it work? only time will tell, and even if it does that doesn’t mean it will in other troops.

To west: It always amazes me how much young kids like ropes (another one of those hooks/tools that scouting provides). Every time our troop brings out the ropes it’s only a matter of time before someone is showing off their ability to try a one handed bowline and/or behind the back square knot. Somewhere they learned the monkeyfist and I keep trying to get them to teach it to me.

The merit badge line was supposed to be mostly a joke, but it is also true. You say your boys go beyond the merit badge, and I agree you should let em loose. But you may want to consider encouraging your boys to look the related merit badge when possible. The boys will usually be close to earning the badge anyway, and when they realize this at least a few will go for the badge and so do things they wouldn’t do otherwise. I’m sure many of your kids are close to getting pioneering (I realize the popularity of THIS badge makes it a bad example), but they probably would not make a rope machine unless going for the merit badge.

[West]

haha, well. The rope machine was taken care of long before they opened the requirements book on Pioneering. I'm a MB councilor for it, but I like to try to get the boys to do stuff because it's fun, not for a badge. Then when they're done or close to it I show them the stuff if they havn't checked it out already. Works really well with the new guys. Changes the attitude from, 'I need to do some MBs', to 'What other fun MBs are out there?' Then they go look a bunch up.

I just don’t think the learning should stop. Even in 7.5 years you can’t learn everything you need to know.

On this just let me point out that when teaching they are makeing big progress in learing some of the most important skills we teach. Leadership, and Responsibility, as well as giving something back to scouting for all the help they've recived. If an important skill for a venture trip is being taught/reviewed then someone (an adult or an older scout who can't go on the trip) should do the teaching that week. Just because someone is a Troop Guide dosn't mean all his time is scouts is spent with the new guys, and no one else has to work with them.

[hacimsaalk]

He disagrees and says that's what he learned in training

He should of also learned in training the the meetings are planned by the PLC.

i agree. we plan all our troop activites. 2-3 yrs ago we used to follow the "plans" but we ALL started to get bored. so know the plc plans everything.

[West]

aspl (soon to be Spl in May)

Mind if I ask how you know that already? Do the guys vote and then there is a couple months before you take over?

[eagleat127]

You guys have made some very good points, and given me a lot to think about. I guess some of the problem is that we currently have no boys with a high level of knowledge that could easily sit out a SI because they know it already. Also I would think it was bad enough that the scout had to miss the activity I wouldn’t want to punish him further by making them miss out on gaining the skills. Like I say my personal solution to this is to get the boys to do their first class learning at a different time then the troop wide SI. That way the older kids get to teach and get the benefits of whatever the others are learning.

As for the merit badges. Is there a better topic to talk about this on? I have a bunch of questions on how troops handle MBs especially at summer camp. I do not see much of a difference here between our opinions. Certainly not enough to talk about on a post about meeting plans.

Back to the topic for a minute. Could someone give me the standard agenda your boys follow during a PM. I realize that like the troop meeting plan it would be flexible, but it could give the kids somewhere to start from.

I am considering what you said already west, and that helped a lot. I’m thinking next campout instead of making the kids clean the equipment on Sunday morning we can wait till the next meeting and let the PL worry about it then.

aspl (soon to be Spl in May)

Mind if I ask how you know that already? Do the guys vote and then there is a couple months before you take over?

I’ve been wondering that since I first read Hacimsaalk’s posting in the hazing topic from back in January. Maybe he’s just being hopeful.

[wagionvigil]

The Only way I figure is the SPL is not elected but the ASPL just takes over and then a new ASPL is elected.

[commish3]

Eagle127

It has been my experience that the troops that do the best job of retaining both the new scouts and the older scouts do so by giving each group the program that fits their specific needs.

New Scout Patrols need to learn the skills and know how and whent o apply them, Experienced Scout Patrols need practice and advanced techniques where their skills and abilities can be challenged. Venture Patrols need Adventure and physical challenges where they can develop their strength and self esteem.

A New Scout is not ready to safely take on the activities of a Venture patrol. A Venture Patrol or experienced Patrol does not want to take time to be taught the basic skills again. They have been there and done that.

The key to a good troop program is a separate program to meet the needs of the different groups. If you don't have experienced scouts read to teach then let the leaders and community teach until you do. Like the Secretary of Defense said "you go to war with the army you have not the army you wish you had." If the olders aren't there yet then use others until they come along. Eventually, if you keep the new scouts in the program and give them good skill instruction, they will become your experienced scouts next year.

There is no reason to not expect every boy to stay in the troop until they are 18. BUT if you expect them to leave at 16...they will. Because if you expect them to leave you will develop a plan based on them leaving, and once they turn 16 there will be nothing left for them to stay for.

You cannot expect a Scout to live through the same program.... year after year after year... and just change position patches. In order to stay interested each year has to be a different experience, or they will leave in droves.

[West]

Well, I've never seen a set agenda for a Patrol meeting to be honest. It's a time the patrol has to do what they need to do to be ready for the next event and take care of other business that needs to be done.

In the beginning this often takes some adult or experianced scout guidance (hopefully the SPL). Things like Do you guys have a Duty roster for the campout next week? or How's your menu and shopping list comeing along? Ask them how their equipment situation is, and what they might do to make up for somethign they lack. Our SPL often assigns each Patrol a part of the meeting. So the Dragon Patrol might want to spend some time planning the Interpatrol activity for next week for example. New scout patrols get assigned simple tasks like opening, and closeing to start. Cleanup after the meeting and set-up before are also assigned to a patrol each week. (The last two don't take much planning though). If a patrol has to much dead time during their meeting, it means they havn't been given enough responsibility.

[Lynda J]

Eagle127 if you are losing 90% of your boys before 7.5 years then you have a leadership problem in a big way. It could be attitude, it could be failure to set good scouting examples. I don't know. But there is something wrong.
When our current SM took this troop over 5 years ago the troop had dropped in memberhsip to the point that there were only 4 active boys. He took the troop over and the next year there were 6, then 10 we now have 19. Some of the boys have been in scouting since Tigers. Two have made Eagle since he took over as SM. He is very big on the troop being boy run. We have lost two boys in the past two years. One moved and one was one of the boys that came up with me. He got so totally out of control that he was actually endangering the others and we were going to ask him to leave when he quit. It was sad but we had little other option.
To me one of the most important things in a good troop is that the older boys are setting a good examply regarding obeying the Scout Laws and living by them.
We just got 4 new scouts. For each of them we have a scout that is 1st Class or above that is their helper until they get to Tenderfoot. Their job is to help them with their skills. It works. When my boys moved up there were 6 of them. The older boys helping was great. It gave the new boys the feeling they were important. And helped the older boys brush up on their skills by teaching.

[hacimsaalk]

aspl (soon to be Spl in May)

Mind if I ask how you know that already? Do the guys vote and then there is a couple months before you take over?

spl will have eagle by then, and by our troop bylaws, he has to step down. hope that clears things up

[ASM-142]

The bylaws of the troop where a SPL has to step down is polciy that is expands upon the requirements as set by national. Also, just because the current SPL is stepping down does not automatically mean that you will be the next SPL - unless by your bylaws you are the only eligible scout

[commish3]

The bylaws of the troop where a SPL has to step down is polciy that is expands upon the requirements as set by national.

What might those national requirements be???

I am unaware of any requirement that restricts any Scout from holding an office once he earns the Eagle rank.

I think you may have developed a troop policy based on a myth.

[wagionvigil]

Here come those nasty Troop Rules Again!!

[eagleat127]

First; I still think we should try to keep on topic, but I’ll answer L. J. anyway.

Second; Since 7 of the last 10 post are about hacimsaalk I’ll say this: I’m glad my troop had no such policy, also I am guessing that as ASPL he will automatically move up when the current SPL can no longer preform his duties.

Third; like I said “it's not a point to argue over I’m just sayin’” I was just trying to point out that C3's statement about boys being in the troop for 7.5 years and only 1 year in the new scout patrol was what your former governor would call “fuzzy math”. Very very few of our kids have ever stayed in and active until their 18th birthday. Some have come sporadically up till then, others would drop out of sight for extended periods of time but come back near the end of their run as a youth, but I think the average scout’s tenure as a youth is much less then 7.5 years. This point didn’t really detract form C3's point that the NSP takes up a small percentage of a boys career in scouting, and since the NSP can be as short as a 3 month program it could be a much smaller percentage of a shorter scouting adventure. Which is why I just tried to gloss over it.

As I said about this originally the boys that drop out early to do so due to “Football, girls, high school, and life and general”. If it is due to any internal troop problems then I would assume it is our lack of a high adventure program. We have never had one, and I am working on fixing that (watch for my new topic on it coming soon).

Also to C3: I do not expect anyone to leave before the hit 18, but I won’t go into shock if they do. Also I’m not really developing any sort of plan based on anything to do with when they will leave. I let/make the boys plan as much as they are capable of, and plan the rest always thinking of what’s best for this particular group of boys.

[commish3]

Hi Eagle I would have e-mailed this to you but there was no link. I apologize for this looking off topic at first glance I promise to bring it back on.

Since you brought it up I thought you might find this intersesting. A few years ago the BSA did a survey of a couple thousand boys who quit scouting their first year, and their Scoutmasters.

The Scoutmasters said the 3 main reasons the boys left the troop was because of
Sports...Peer pressure...and unsupportive parents.

The reason the boys gave, in fact the #1 response from 8 out of ten former scouts was....Boring Troop Meetings.

This brings us back to the importance of the program being designed to fit the needs of the boys. Younger scouts "watching" older ones may hold their attention for a moment of AHH factor, but what they want is to get there hands on things and DO STUFF, not watch others do stuff.

The tiered program designed by the BSA allows each age group to be able to plan and participate at their development stage. 13 year olds wil have no problem deciding things to do for their own age and abilities. But 17 year olds do not want to re-live the same program year over and over again.

While the unit you serve may not hold onto older scouts many units do. The key is to have age appropriate activities that increase in adventure as the scout develops and ages.