Gaming Merit Badge

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 30 Jul 2004 08:30 pm Post subject: Gaming Merit
Badge

My friend and I were thinking of creating a gaming merit
abdge. this is not hunting. It is like strategy games and
stuff, teaching, learning, playing, and creating new strategy
games would need some thoughts on requirements. Any comments
welcome.
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 30 Jul 2004 08:57 pm Post subject:

Other than Strategy games like Chess, I don't really see how
you can make an entire MB out of this.
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Firefish
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Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 30 Jul 2004 10:01 pm Post subject:

Role playing
games!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I love
those
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 31 Jul 2004 08:15 am Post subject:

The next thing you will want is a video game MB right?
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 31 Jul 2004 09:07 am Post subject:

no.
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Peter Cahill
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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 31 Jul 2004 02:42 pm Post subject:

Whoa I think you got the wrong Idea there.....
I think maybe what I meant to say was is that there arent that
many specialized skills needed for role playing games are
there?

I come from the D&D era, used to be pretty good at it, won a
couple a tournaments too, but once you have learned the rules,
what else is there....enlighten me
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Firefish
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Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 31 Jul 2004 06:53 pm Post subject:

most people dont get the concept of role playing games. I dont
have time and I am leaving for summer camp tomorrow at 0800
oclock. so if you could put this topic on hold I will get back
to you asap.
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 31 Jul 2004 06:59 pm Post subject:

What SMBob is saying, Fish, is that even though people don't
understand the concepts, there isn't a way to make a MB for
the games. Ther isn't too much skill in playing the games that
could be useful outside of role-playing games themselves.
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Troop 42
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Firefish
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Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 07 Aug 2004 06:03 pm Post subject:

this was just kind of a joke because i wanted to see who out
there like games like those
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Peter Cahill
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 01:32 pm Post subject:

Maybe in Las Vegas/Atlantic City that would be a popular
MB....of course there are business based MB's too!

Perhaps Monopoly Merit Badge? HA HA HA
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Firefish
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Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 09 Aug 2004 05:55 pm Post subject:

not gabling and i dont really want to call it a joke i also
wanted to see if someone could come up with good requirements.
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 09:10 am Post subject: Great idea!

Hi everyone! I have been reading the boards for awhile, but
this subject actually got me to register.

While learning the rules is a big part of it, there is so much
more. We are avid gamers, and have learned many different
games in the past.

The benefits of having a merit badge such as this would be
wonderful. Gaming promotes sportsmanship, teamwork, reading
and understanding concepts that one may not normally be
exposed to.

Also, gaming is like a sport to some kids. Some may not do so
well in basketball, baseball etc., but give them a strategy
game and some help and they will shine.

I hope you reconsider and don't take your post to be a "joke",
because, I for one, think it is something that should be
considered. My husband was Cubmaster for the past 4 years, and
our son has bridged to the troop now, and I am a MB counselor.
This would be a badge that I would fully support. Where do
these ideas go? Is there a possiblity that this would ever
come to be? If so, I'd be more than willing to give some help
on the subject!

Stacey Baker

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 09:25 am Post subject:

It seems like it would be one of those things that are popular
now but in a couple of years...will seem maybe outdated or
unpopular? I could be completely wrong! perhaps they could
match it up with the computers MB?
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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 09:39 am Post subject:

I don't think that this would be a merit badge that would be
outdated in a couple of years.

There are many, many aspects of gaming that would keep it
around for a long time. For instance, D&D has been around for
a long time, and once people start playing, they continue,
most times.

The same is true for the popular CCG Magic The Gathering. I
can not even tell you how many boys in the troop play this
game. This game has been around for 10+ years and is still
going strong.

Those are just two examples. I would think if you go with
"fad" games ie Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh there is definately more of a
chance of it being outdated.

Strategy games and role-playing games will be around forever.
Fish, when you get back from camp, I'd love to hear your
thoughts about how this could get rolling, and what
requirements you think would be good...the possibilities are
endless.
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 09:57 am Post subject:

I think you may run into opposition with troops sponsored by
religious institutions...D&D has been the subject of a lot of
debate. I doubt the BSA wants to start that fire...
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 10:01 am Post subject:

I am not suggesting d&d that game is annoying I mean something
uncontrovertial
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 10:08 am Post subject:

I was just trying to give an example of games that have been
around for quite some time.

There are many many different types of RPG's that would not be
considered "controversial". I think that there is definately
enough possibilities to make the requirements worthwhile.

BTW, I am not a scout, but I can't figure out how to change
the title under my logon name. I am a counselor.
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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 12:02 pm Post subject:

that is just an odd thing message boards have. they assign you
a title according to your number of posts. as you post more
often it will change to tenderfoot and so on and so forth
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 12:54 pm Post subject:

So gaming merit badge would not include video games, card
games, board games....what about baseball and other
sport/outdoor games?
I guess it looks as though I'm playing the bad guy...but I'm
not sure if the people who decide what is/is not a merit badge
would even know what a role playing game was?

What do you think some of the requirements would be?
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BM_Crawford
Life

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 131
Location: PA W/F Council
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 03:11 pm Post subject:

I think its a good idea except for the fact that BSA frowns on
card games of any kind so you'd have to stick away from card
games.
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Brian Crawford
Troop 251

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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 10 Aug 2004 10:20 pm Post subject:

Well, as far as BSA goes, I think the card games they frown
upon would be more of the poker/gambling type things.

I don't think that video games would even need to be a part of
this badge. There are too many other possibilities available
to be shoving some sort of video game thing in there.

We have had quite a few instances where people didn't quite
understand, but if you are willing to listen, it's very
simple. If anyone is interested, you are more then welcome to
email me with any questions.

There are career possiblities in the gaming industry, travel
opportunities and many many other aspects that would make
obtaining a merit badge such as this worthwhile.

I'd like to thank everyone here, you have given us quite a bit
to think about. We just started talking about it tonight and
have numerous ideas already. I realize how difficult it may
be, but with some effort who knows where it could end up?

Stacey
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BM_Crawford
Life

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 131
Location: PA W/F Council
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 06:55 am Post subject:

No, they frown on just about all kinds, trading cards, playing
cards, anything that has to do with cards. Most troops ignore
this and let the kids play with cards on camping trips but its
definately frowned on.
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 07:50 am Post subject:

I still have my doubts as to whether or not this would ever be
a merit badge but by all means give it a valiant effort...you
never know?
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baumhauer14
Scout

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 2
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 08:54 pm Post subject:

hi i am an eagle scout and i am also consdering becoming a
merit badge counselor. a gaming meritbadge is one that i would
enjoy being the counselor for. like stacey said before it
promotes so many good qualities in a person and the gaming
industry does have so many oppertunitys. i for one have
witnesed these things and personaly think that they would be
good for the youth in the BSA. i know from experience that it
is not always easy picking merit badges that would be fun.
this is one that a lot of kids would pick as one of there
unrequired merit badges. i actually wish that this badge would
have been an option when i was in scouts going for my eagle. i
went through a troop where all we did with our free time on
camping trips was play games. when i firts started in troop
140 the older kids in the troop at the time were all playing
d&d. now the troop i came from is very Magic the gatherign
oriented. almost every kid in the troop plays. there is
absouletly nothing wrong with ccgs and all. these games are
not fads. a few are but most are not. my uncle works in Cradel
Of Liberty Council and is in his 50's and he plays Magic as
well as my younger brother. magic has been around for 10+
years. d&d is having there 30 annaversery this fall. i would
not call that a fad.if anyone wants ideas for requirements ive
got a few.

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 11 Aug 2004 09:39 pm Post subject:

The problem with these games is that they are often
contraverstial in nature and tend to get religious
organizations in a uproar....many scout troops, packs, crews
etc, are chartered through these religious organizations.
Therefore it's probably in the BSA's best interest to avoid
this issue all together...therefore I don't think this will
ever materialize into an actual merit badge... Please realize
that for every good point you come up with there will be
someone else bringing up all the bad stuff...

I also doubt that video/computer games will ever become a
merit badge due to the same reasons.

As for the Magic and D&D not being fads....I think they have
already faded... Please refer to the post above about the BSA
and card games... Seems like the issue is already settled....
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baumhauer14
Scout

Joined: 11 Aug 2004
Posts: 2
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 12 Aug 2004 05:05 pm Post subject:

Guneukitschik just to let you know accorging to a gamming
magizine from last year there are aproxmitly 7 million people
that play magic world wide. i would not call that a fad. and
if a game was a fad it would not last very long. look at how
long pokemon lasted. that was a fad. also i very highly doubt
that the bsa frowns on card games. these are not you everyday
card games. its good for kids and there is no violence or
gambaling. so i really do not see where the problem is with
this becoming a badge.
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Eagel Scout Troop 140
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 12 Aug 2004 06:22 pm Post subject:

I'm not even getting into this again... Please put forth a
worthwhile effort and propose it to National. I have a hard
time even thinking of a worthy requirement for this possible
merit badge subject! If you plan on submitting this subject as
a proposal...you need lots of requirements...as well as some
type of positive gain/knowledge that you would get by
completing the badge? Who knows...maybe it'll be a merit badge
someday...maybe it won't!
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BM_Crawford
Life

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 131
Location: PA W/F Council
Posted: 12 Aug 2004 10:14 pm Post subject:

I am sick of telling you this but in my personal experience
BSA frowns on ALL forms of card games!!!!!!!! Trading cards,
playing cards, ect ect. Alot of troops still use playing cards
even kids in my troop use them but that does not change the
fact that BSA does not like them. Whether you find it hard to
believe or not thats just the way things are. I'm not saying
this would be a bad badge at all I'm just saying that I dought
card games will be ok in it. Every year I hear about not
bringing cards of any kind camping and they are very specific
to include trading cards and other types of cards.
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Troop 251

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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 10:10 am Post subject:

Okay, well, my intent was not to make anyone sick of anything.
I was looking for some thoughtful insight. I understand what
you are saying about BSA policies, but I guess troop policies
vary from place to place.

Just to clarify one thing said by someone in a prior post,
video games were not even thought about. All the other games,
basically, would keep the outing in scouting, because they can
be played anywhere.

We will take our ideas elsewhere, so you won't feel like you
have to keep telling us things over and over again. Sorry that
this has annoyed some of you so badly. We honestly just
thought it would be something different and fun for the BSA.
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 10:19 am Post subject:

Can't wait til the perpetual rumor gets started about a D&D or
other gaming tent being set up at Jamboree rears its ugly head
again.

Guneukitschik has a valid point. I'm afraid there's just too
much opposition to things like this from some chartered
organizations.

I'm afraid you might be fighting a very steep uphill battle.

B2
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Scoutmaster
Troop 509
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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 10:32 am Post subject:

I guess we will have to wait and see....I'm not afraid of an
uphill battle if it's a cause I believe in, and if I know I
have people backing me.

Also, I think you guys are definately getting the wrong
impression of what is being talked about. We are not looking
to create havoc with any troops' chartered org. reps. Or
having whatever you talked about at Jamboree. Way off base.

Thank you all for your input. Again, I understand that this is
not a merit badge that you would like to see happen, for
whatever the reason may be. Thank you for your opinions.
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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 12:09 pm Post subject:

SLb1026 said
Quote:
BTW, I am not a scout, but I can't figure out how to
change the title under my logon name. I am a counselor.

Counselor is Another term for Room Moderator, we thought
Counselor
would sound more like we are here to help you, which we are,
rather than here to monitor you.

As was stated earlier in the posts, the more posts, the higher
your rank goes, but dont abuse the system, we want this to be
a quality discussion site.

Just thought you should know.
Thanks for your intrest in the site, keep posting those great
posts!!!
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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 12:17 pm Post subject:

Please keep in mind that you've not annoyed anyone here. I'm
all for progress and new merit badges...however there are
certain subjects that would be extremely tough to make a merit
badge out of...and I feel that this subject is one of them.
Please make the effort, however, to put together a proposal
and submit it to National for consideration.

I still haven't seen any proposed requirements? nor could I
think of any?
I would be interested in seeing any ideas for requirements
posted here...
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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 12:20 pm Post subject:

I restate from one of my previous posts:

Quote:
I think maybe what I meant to say was is that there
arent that many specialized skills needed for role
playing games are there?

I come from the D&D era, used to be pretty good at it,
won a couple a tournaments too, but once you have
learned the rules, what else is there....enlighten me

Dont card games come under the same idea, once you understand
the rules, what more do you need to know.

What about chess...there is already an academic belt loop
available for the Cub Scouts to earn, can a merit badge be far
behind?
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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 12:48 pm Post subject:

Being new to the boards, I thought the title under your name
was actually what your position was in real life....not on the
boards. I didn't realize that the rank goes up with the posts.
I just wanted to get the point across that I am not a scout in
a troop, I am a MB Counselor. Thanks for clearing that up for
me.

As for the requirements, there are many besides learning the
rules. I have come up with a bunch already, but I was hesitant
to post them, because it didn't seem like something there was
much positive interest in.
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Buffalo Bill
First Class

Joined: 15 Jul 2004
Posts: 54
Location: Florida Panhandle
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 05:21 pm Post subject:

It's not that we wouldn't like to see happen, it's just that
you need to prepare yourself with valid responses when the
nay-sayers come.

I've been hoping that my friends in SCUBA staff would have
more luck with a SCUBA Merit Badge. They've been going at it
since SCUBA was introduced at the '89 Jamboree. In fact, in
recent years they've lost ground. There are now additional
restrictions on SCUBA, and illogical program specific
restrictions vice logical age restrictions.

B2
SCUBA Staff, '97, '01, '05 National Jamborees
PADI Open Water SCUBA Instructor
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SLB1026
Tenderfoot

Joined: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 11
Location: Conshohocken, PA
Posted: 13 Aug 2004 05:38 pm Post subject:

Bill,

Yeah, I understand that. You never know what could happen.
BTW, thanks for you input. My dad is a scuba diver too (former
Asst. Scoutmaster) and has just re-upped for a MB counselor
for Motorboating. He was talking about the Scuba thing too,
wishing there was one. It is too bad that it's getting more
difficult. My dad is an instructor and has been through all
sorts of classes and runs different dives, so I know that
would be one he would enjoy.

I'll be interested to what happens..
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[SLB1026]

Okay, now I have a question. After coming up with possible requirements (I have already read the page about submitting Merit Badge Ideas), do you think it's best to show the requirements along with some of the possible answers? This way, people that may not understand the concepts would have a better idea after reading the possibilities a badge like this would offer. I have also read that if you know of scouts that would be interested in/support the merit badge, you can have them include letters with your presentation. Anyone know if that is true? Thanks for any info you can give!

[BM_Crawford]

Thats a good idea! I like that so that way if someone doesnt understand a game some information can be given!

[Guneukitschik]

I think you should offer as much support as possible for your idea. The letters couldn't hurt either? Think of it as a term paper! provide references for all the information that you've obtained as well as for the answers to the requirements. Additional Information can only help!

[optimist]

I may be somewhat biased but I recommend you flesh things out here before making a submittal to the BSA. I'll use this discussion about a Gaming merit badge as an example. Here's a quick synopsis of what we have said so far:

• A strategy game like chess might be a good candidate for inclusion.
• Some games may have negative conotations for some members and sponsoring organizations. General examples were games promoting or insinuating gambling, violence, and the occult.
• Would this merit badge serve any real purpose? Answers included promoting sportsmanship, teamwork, reading, and understanding concepts.
• Currently popular games may not make good candidates because they may be fads.
• The BSA frowns on card games.

I watched this thread with much interest and was saddened when it came to a stop. Maybe my observations will be an impetus to get it moving again.

The original poster never made it clear exactly what kinds of games he was talking about. He may have wanted to keep this open but I felt this caused some confusion. In addition, I feel he may have had games like Magic and D&D in mind and I doubt these would ever be seriously considered, religious considerations aside, because they are copyrighted. Likewise, all electronic games of any kind would probably not be considered seriously.

On the other hand, there are many games that have been around a long time that remain popular, chess being at the top of the list. Card games are also a consideration, at least the ones not associated with gambling. Despite what has been said, I know of no BSA rule against card games. I know that summer camps discourage Scouts from bringing cards but that's a camp issue, not a national rule. There are many perfectly legitimate Scout activities that are restricted and/or frowned upon at summer camp.

So, if I had proposed this merit badge, what would I have done differently? I would have been more specific about the types of games that would be involved while still being open to alternatives and suggestions. I would have explained the reasons why I felt this would be a good merit badge and in what ways this merit badge might serve the Scouts working on it. And I probably would have even suggested what some of the requirements might look like.

I don't know if a Gaming merit badge would ever be considered seriously by the BSA but then that's why this forum exists, as a way to hash out the issues related to merit badge development. I encourage anyone having any ideas related to possible new merit badges to make thorough use of these forums and this development tool. And I request that those who have opinions about these ideas to state those opinions contructively, positive or negative, so that this forum serves to encourage such development.

[SLB1026]

Thanks for the comments everyone! Optimist, basically, I stopped posting regarding the subject, because I didn't want to cause any disruption or bad feelings, and that's kind of what I thought was happening. You see, I feel that this could be a worthwhile badge, because it promotes great things. We go to many gaming conventions, and have met quite a few scouts (former scouts and current scouts). We are avid gamers, which is probably why I feel the way I do. The things we have learned, the people we have met have been wonderful experiences, and I think I have enough back up info and stats, as well as the possibilities for the requirements that would make it worthwhile. Please keep in mind, that for this particular badge, I would not even attempt to include video games.....

Comments, questions, keep them coming! It is helping me answer questions I may never even thought of!

[hisdad]

Hi,
My comments are in regard to "electionic" games.

My son, several years ago, wanted GameBoy Pokeman (red/blue). But, he could NOT even read yet. I agreed. And, I also bought the Versus guide. I told him I would never give him the answers, but I would always help.
So, he began reading the guide, and I explained the use of "table of contents", the index, various lookup tables, maps, iwalkthrough instructions, etc.

Also, the inventor of the game is very interested in nature and the environment. These are the very things Scout's aim to teach.

So, I believe Pokeman for GameBoy really helped my son to read and have an understading of nature and life.

ps. he has collected ***ALL*** Pokemon, have you?

And, he will begin the new games in Sept '04.
I will encourage him to create his own walkthrough instructions, and publish them......

Its all about making the brain work!

BTW -- if you want to know where all electionic "adventure" games (Pokemon, Myst, Doom, Mech..., Tomb Raider, Sim's...) got started? Just put "colossal cave adventure" in your favourite search engine.

My contribution here it to point out the positive aspects of electionic games. Its up to you reading this to use it as needed.

[Guneukitschik]

I am interested in seeing any potential requirements for this subject.

Perhaps listing some requirements and other info. we would be better able to understand the exact subject matter that you are trying to include.