A Few Quesions About Eagle Palms

[optimist]

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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 16 Jul 2004 04:26 pm Post subject: A Few Quesions
About Eagle Palms

I'm not sure about certain aspects of the Eagle Palm awards.

1)Do you have to wait 3 months in between each palm award?
2)Do you have to earn the Palms 5 at a time? For example, if
you had 20 additional merit badges to the 21 you had to gain
the Eagle rank, would you earn the Silver Palm, wait three
months, then earn the Bronze Palm? Or would you have to wait a
total of 12 months to earn all of them?
3)On wearing them: After you earn 10, do you wear a Bronze
Palm and the Silver Palm? Or do you Just wear the Silver Palm?

Two of these questions I'm 95% sure I know the answer to. One
I have no idea on. Guess which one that is.
_________________
John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 16 Jul 2004 04:37 pm Post subject:

silver is above gold and is the most you need fifteen
meritbadges for it and I belive you have to wait three months
in between them I am pretty sur. (sounds like a question for
the optomist) You wear just the silver palm. there is a table
showing this on this web site in the eagle palms section

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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 16 Jul 2004 06:12 pm Post subject:

I meant Bronze and Gold Palm. Sorry about that.
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John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 17 Jul 2004 02:59 pm Post subject:

I still stick with what I said

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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 17 Jul 2004 06:41 pm Post subject:

Optimist, do you know what I'm asking? I'm mostly stuck on #2.
Any ideas?
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John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 126

Posted: 17 Jul 2004 07:49 pm Post subject:

Sure, here ya go

(1) Yes and you must be active

(2) All the merit badges earned past the 21 required for Eagle
count toward palms. There's a chart here. If on the day you
earn your Eagle you already have 41 merit badges, you could
earn four palms, one every three months, over the next year,
as long as you meet all the palm requirements each three
months.

(3) The chart already mentioned provides instructions on
wearing palms.

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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 17 Jul 2004 11:26 pm Post subject:

Thanks again for your help, optimist. Hmm. I really wish that
the Eagle Palm setup was different. Another theoretical will
explain my problem: Say a scout received the rank of Eagle on
his 17th birthday. In addition to his 21 required merit
badges, he had 20 others. However, during his last year he
earned 10 more merit badges. He would only receive recognition
for 20 of those merit badges, earning four palms in a year. 10
of those merit badges go unrewarded.

I think that they should change the setup of the Palms.
Perhaps every three months you could earn a Palm: the
difference, however, would be that you could earn any palm.
For example, the 17-year-old mentioned above would only have
to wait 6 months to receive recognition for those 30 merit
badges instead of 18 months, making him ineligible. This would
mean that if someone earned all 118 merit badges (an amazing
feat in itself), he would earn all 7 Silver Palms and the one
Gold Palm that he deserves in only 24 months, meaning that he
would have to earn Eagle by his 16th birthday (an extremely
possible task) instead of the theoretical 92 months (7 years,
8 months- he would have to earn Eagle Scout 8 months before he
joined the Boy Scouts).

That is just my suggestion. If anyone would like to praise,
critique, or downright destroy my idea (I won't cry- ), be my
guest.

As always,
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John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 01:15 pm Post subject:

good thinking kobalt

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 01:16 pm Post subject:

just wondering? are you one of those poor unfortunate souls

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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 18 Jul 2004 11:03 pm Post subject:

Heh, no. I just turned sixteen, so there's no way for me to
get the palms either way. I'm content with one or two.
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John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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szelenskei
Scout

Joined: 08 Jul 2004
Posts: 5
Location: Woodburn, OR
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 06:23 pm Post subject: Eagle palms

What if you earned 99 merit badges after your 21 eagle
required how many palms can you recieve then. And how long
would you have to wait to get them. To me it does not seem
practical because you can only keep earning those palms until
your 18th birthday, taht would mean that even though you have
all 120 merit badges you will not be able to recive all of the
palms you require for it.
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Sergei Zelenskei H.S.

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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 126

Posted: 22 Jul 2004 10:39 pm Post subject:

It is possible for a Scout to earn Palms for every merit badge
earned. Do the math

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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 22 Jul 2004 11:03 pm Post subject:

That's exactly my point, szelenskei.

And optimist, I did do the math.

Quote:
For example, the 17-year-old mentioned above would only
have to wait 6 months to receive recognition for those
30 merit badges instead of 18 months, making him
ineligible. This would mean that if someone earned all
118 merit badges (an amazing feat in itself), he would
earn all 7 Silver Palms and the one Gold Palm that he
deserves in only 24 months, meaning that he would have
to earn Eagle by his 16th birthday (an extremely
possible task) instead of the theoretical 92 months (7
years, 8 months- he would have to earn Eagle Scout 8
months before he joined the Boy Scouts).

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John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 126

Posted: 23 Jul 2004 07:30 am Post subject:

hehe Maybe I should have said redo the math. Ok, here it is.

Eagle requires 21 merit badges. Remove those 21 from the 118
total merit badges. This leaves 97 available to go towards
earning palms. Will make that 100 to have an easy number to
work with.

Earning a Palm every three months would require 5 merit
badges. Four Palms a year could be earned if 20 merit badges a
year are earned. 20 goes into 100 five times which means that
minimum time required to earn all Palms is five years. If you
earn Eagle prior to your 13th birthday (something which is
possible and has been explained in another thread), you can
earn all the possible Palms available by completion of all
merit badges.

Has this ever happened? I don't know. Maybe. But having a
chest full of awards is not the point of the advancement
program. The point is the struggle to achieve and recognition
of that struggle.

So instead of getting technical about the details of what is
and what is not possible, let's get to what I believe is the
real issue here. Someone has suggested that there shouldn't be
a time requirement for the earning of Palms. What about Star,
Life, and Eagle? They have time requirements. Should we remove
those as well?

To me, this all boils down to one question -- are Palms part
of rank advancement or are they simply recognition for the
earning additional merit badges? We know that the BSA
considers them rank advancement because that's what they call
them. Since they are rank advancement, it's natural that they
have requirements similar to other ranks and that would
include time requirements.

If they are simply recognition for the earning of additional
merit badges, what purpose would this serve? After all, you
are already recognized for earning those merit badges.

One last premise (I do try to see things from every side of
the issue even if I do talk too much )... What if there were
150 merit badges? 200 merit badges? 500? 1000? If you managed
to earn 1000 merit badges do you think wearing 65 Silver Palms
on your chest would make the achievement any greater? I know,
I'm nuts. Just curious about what you think.

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Billvann
Second Class

Joined: 14 Jul 2004
Posts: 19
Location: McHenry, IL
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 08:46 am Post subject:

optimist wrote:
To me, this all boils down to one question -- are Palms
part of rank advancement or are they simply recognition
for the earning additional merit badges? We know that
the BSA considers them rank advancement because that's
what they call them. Since they are rank advancement,
it's natural that they have requirements similar to
other ranks and that would include time requirements.

If they are simply recognition for the earning of
additional merit badges, what purpose would this serve?
After all, you are already recognized for earning those
merit badges.

Okay. Playing Devil's advocate, what purpose do they serve? Is
it a rank advancement aimed at keeping Eagle Scouts active
becasue it serves as something to work towards? If so, it
seems counter intuitive. A seventeen year old with 10 or 15
aditional merit badges at the time he earns Eagle has little
incentive to remain active as he's maxed out his advancement
opportunity.

On the other hand, if he were to be awarded the appropriate
palm at the time of his Eagle rank, then has the opportunity
to advance from that point forward, he may be more inclined to
work towards additional rank advancement. I've seen Eagle
scouts just stop because they can coast. Is it right? No,
becasue there's still opportunity to introduce yourself to new
ideas and areas of expertise through the merit badge program.
But the perception is that they're done and they stop.
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Willie Vannerson
ASM Troop 149
McHenry, IL

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[optimist]

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Kobalt
Star

Joined: 12 Jul 2004
Posts: 98
Location: Louisville, KY
Posted: 23 Jul 2004 11:59 am Post subject:

That's what I'm getting at, Billvan. Thanks for the input.

My bad, optimist. I forgot to subtract the 21 from the total
merit badges.
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John Baunach
Troop 42
"If it were easy, it would have been done before." -Jeana
Yeager, co-pilot of Voyager

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 05 Aug 2004 09:27 pm Post subject:

there is an Eagle Scout in our council that has earned all the
merit badges but he only wears a couple palms due to the
requirements. I think as a scout it looks more impressive to
wear the merit badge sash... the palms are ok but the merit
badge sash looks a lot more impressive!

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[ICanCanoeCanU]

Yes, I would agree! I'm sorry the scouts don't wear their sash past 18 for big events. Our troop does a big deal to honor an Eagle Scout. We have big, fancy dinners to present the new Eagle scout with his award. Many Eagle scouts return for this event to speak at and it's always nice to see them but they don't wear their sash.

I think you can tell a lot about a scout based on what merit badges they earned. Kind of tells you what kind of person they are and what interests them.

I think the whole point of the palm is to reward the scouts that have earned above and beyond and are still active (not just registered but actively camping and partaking in the troop) and have earned the right to be noted as opposed to the scout that receives his Eagle and runs?

[Guneukitschik]

I think you are correct.... all too often I either see it directly or hear of scouts that reach Eagle and then quit! Most of these Eagles are very young in age and I don't feel have the maturity that is expected from those who have earned the Eagle rank.

I'm not saying that they shouldn't be involved in other activities but scouting is designed that you can do many different activities and still be involved in scouting in some way, shape or form.

Perhaps they should expand the palm award or place more emphasis on it and maybe the young eagles would stick around!

[BM_Crawford]

I have a problem with my troop and their palms. There is one scout in particular who had earned extra merit badges before he got eagle which counted for palms. One of the requirements is Leadership Demonstration; he has never attended a troop meeting after he "earned" eagle except to pick up his palms. That very much makes me mad, first off it means his palms are worthless in my eyes and secondly its a discredit to the scouts who actually complete all the requirments for the palms.

[Guneukitschik]

I would have to agree with you.... Leadership Demonstration is exactly that...being involved and using the skills that you've gained to aid in the leadership of the troop.

In my opinion...this scout hasn't fulfilled the requirements for his palms.

Many troops have their Eagle scouts serve as troop guides or junior assistant scoutmasters. They usually help a new patrol or fill in wherever they are needed. It usually works out great when they help a new patrol... all the young scouts usually look up to an Eagle!

[BM_Crawford]

Yes thats the problem...one meeting the kid was talking through everything and being disruptive with a bunch of other "non-shows" older scouts. Needless to say I shared a few words (nothing unapropriate) when the scouts went into patrols and kind of embarassed them. I also like your idea of the JASM but he hasn't earned it. Only three of us got the JASM possition and we are all to old to earn palms hehe

[RWSmith]

Two things, Guys:

For a Palm to be approved, several adults must sign off on it. If the adults set the WRONG standard, then they alone are to blame... Period. (The SM, the MCs who sat on the BOR, and the AC and the CC, too.)

Although I agree that Eagle Scouts who are working on a Palm need to be active in the Troop and Patrol, that does not mean the Scout must attend all Troop meetings. In fact, typical Eagle Scouts have a lot going on; they have typically assumed additional responsibilities, both in and out of Scouting, in or out of the Troop... OA, Camp Staff, Etc. Eagle Scouts who are working on Palms can prove to be invaluable assets, from behind the scenes, so to speak. For example... A member of the Troop also seves on the OA Chapter's Election Team. He spends three months running around conducting elections and works on a 5th MB for a Palm. 90% of the Troops in his District meet on Monday nights. He attends Rountables during this time, but, misses all but two of his own Troop's meetings... Should he be held up for another 3 months? I think not.

Don't get me wrong, now. I agree... Scouts are frequently awarded Palms who haven't lifted a finger in Scouting during the "3 month time period" requirement. But, I recently sat on a BOR for a Silver Palm. Did he attend a lot of Troop meetings? No. Did he help Scouting or the Troop in other ways. Definitely. KEY POINT: This was explained to him -and- the other Sr. Scouts. I know rules are rules. But, common sense is rule number one.

BTW, I didn't get a Bronze Palm because I went before the BOR after I turned 18. Did I earn it? No doubt. No doubt whatsoever.

I personally think it would be an AWESOME incentive if Palms could be awarded even though you've turned 18. (Still gotta have the MBs done by 18, though.) Think about it.

[BM_Crawford]

Yes but this kid does nothing with scouts at all! I agree with everything you say though its just that this kid wasnt even very active with any aspect of scouting when he got his eagle in the first place. I cant wait till I get to be ASM hopefully I can start to limit some of this nonsense about gets being handed awards for nothing

[RWSmith]

Yes but this kid does nothing with scouts at all! I agree with everything you say though its just that this kid wasnt even very active with any aspect of scouting when he got his eagle in the first place.

I was afraid of that.

I cant wait till I get to be ASM hopefully I can start to limit some of this nonsense about gets being handed awards for nothing

BM... (aka, Bro Grasshopper)... Don't be too harsh, though. I was just like you, once upon a time. Try your best to temper your passion for Scouting (and all it's rules) with friendship and compassion. Slowly raise the standards in you Troop to the level they should be. That way, everybody can "grow" to meet the bar.

[BM_Crawford]

I see thank you for your wisdom and advice I shall follow it.

[Guneukitschik]

maybe you should offer this Eagle a position of responsibility.... ask him for some help....make it seem like you really need his assistance... this may help get him involved again..doubtful but it may work...

Remind your scoutmaster & troop committee of the requirements!

[don]

Does the requirement for palms, say show leadership within Scouting? Or does it say show leadership. Do you see where I am going with this? Ask the SM what leadership he showed, it may have been with his church or school.

[BM_Crawford]

maybe you should offer this Eagle a position of responsibility.... ask him for some help....make it seem like you really need his assistance... this may help get him involved again..doubtful but it may work...

Remind your scoutmaster & troop committee of the requirements!

Hmm its an idea I may attempt thanks.

And I just looked it up in Merit Badge Dot Com's web page and they say you have to be active in your troop now I see what your saying about the leadership don it doesnt specify what kind so maybe that is how he is getting that part signed off. Good thinking!

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I agree with Crawford!

The point about BOR for palms is good too. As the advancement coordinator for our troop, I spoke out about an Eagle scout that wanted his palms. He had earned all the badges prior to obtaining his Eagle and then we didn't see him again. He called me to ask when his palms would arrive and i explained the time limits which he understood but said he didn't need any SM conference or BOR because he clearly had earned the highest rank being Eagle. After recieving his first palm (which he did participate for, prior to his big Eagle dinner) we didn't allow him anymore without participating at some level within the troop. Not expecting him at all the meetings but at least a few and a campout or two. Over 1/2 of the troop didn't even know who he was because they joined right when he ranked Eagle. So adults can be the determining factor with some of this. And please, don't jump on me for being a power beast, I'm not like that but what's right is right. The guidelines are written, we (the adult volunteers) are just there to see they are followed.

[Guneukitschik]

One of the "benefits" of the palms is that it is supposed to keep the Eagle active with the troop after earning the Eagle Rank...therefore the time limits, leadership, etc... however, I don't feel that this is enough to keep most Eagles around!

[cballman]

through training and roudtable meetings and being a ASM and also being an Eagle scout I will have to say that when a scout earns his Eagle which is th BOR night. then if he meets the req.for the palms then he should be awarded palms 1 for each three months so if a scout earns his Eagle on his 17 birthday then if he stays active he can only earn 4 palms not as many merit badges as can be pushed into use. if a scout earns his Eagle 1 month before his 18 birthday then he cannot earn any palms due to the time req. I am sorry for the scout but as National says you cannot add to or take away from any badge or rank. if any badges or palms are awarded then they seem to take away from what the other people have EARNED not just a givin.

[BM_Crawford]

I agree I am just a bit annoyed that this person is being handed palms for nothing I think it takes away from people who actually do stuff to help scouting. I'm sorry but if you've got nothing els to give after Eagle then you need to rethink award. Especially if your accumulating palms.

[Guneukitschik]

Active still means active in troop activities, etc... of course the kid may not be able to make it to every meeting, outing, etc...but an honest effort needs to be made.

[BM_Crawford]

Agreed!