Rate of rank advancement passed first class

[optimist]

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KateR
Scout

Joined: 26 Jul 2004
Posts: 1

Posted: 26 Jul 2004 11:17 am Post subject: Rate of rank
advancement passed first class

We try to acheive "first class, first year". Does any one have
guide lines for the next ranks?

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Firefish
Life

Joined: 05 Jul 2004
Posts: 145
Location: Beaver, Pa
Posted: 26 Jul 2004 12:26 pm Post subject:

as soon as the scout has developed the necessary leadership
scout spirit and maturity
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Peter Cahill
Troop 469
A Fighting Irish

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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 126

Posted: 26 Jul 2004 05:33 pm Post subject:

The Scouting program is designed around Scouts advancing at
their own pace. This is mentioned many times throughout the
program materials. Scoutmaster Conference's and Boards of
Review are the best way to determine if a Scout is advancing
appropriately.

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ScoutmasterBob
Counselor

Joined: 07 Jul 2004
Posts: 79
Location: Woods Cross, Utah
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 12:59 pm Post subject:

The ranks after First Class are all based on MB achievement,
time in leadership positions and service hours.

Encourage the scouts to work on the 3 month long MBs first
these are generally the toughest, enviro science, family life,
personal fitness, personal mangement.

These tend to be the ones left until the last minute.

Some of the high schools in our area have MB classes that are
taught at night as part of the community high school program.
The citizenships, first aid, communications, mostly the
required badges.
_________________
Bob Torkelson
Scoutmaster Troop 538
www.wx5troop538.homestead.com
Live The Oath!

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wagionvigil
Counselor

Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 189
Location: PA
Posted: 27 Jul 2004 01:03 pm Post subject: Classes

I like the idea of MB classes in the school. I might try to
push for that.
_________________
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Jamborees
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Wagion 6 Lodge Advisor 96-99
"If you ain't A bear you're a Meal"

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RWSmith
Counselor

Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: 28 Jul 2004 04:29 pm Post subject:

First Class w/i the First Year is a good goal for any Scout to
have. I, too, encourage new Scouts (and their parents) to
subscribe to the idea.

But, this really got me thinking. It took me a couple of days
to sort it all out:

SCOUT to FIRST CLASS…

When I was a Scout, every rank had a minimum time. Today
though, the time issue from Scout to First Class has been
effectively (and appropriately) subdued. A kid working to
advance from Scout to First Class sees the emphasis as
learning the basic Scout skills set. To a parent or Scouter,
evident is the re-enforcement of repetition and building on
each skill with each added rank; plus, early opportunities to
"Show, Do and Teach" these skills. I sat on a BOR the other
night for a kid who has been Tenderfoot for a year. He's only
12. He's also smart a whip. It was no big deal until it became
important to him (or his mom or dad), which will become
imprtant, later.

FIRST CLASS TO LIFE…

So, “traditional” Troops hold officer elections twice a year,
regardless of the point Scout "A" or Scout "B" makes rank.
Considering this, a good rule of thumb is 6 months from First
Class to Star and 9 months to Life. For Star and Life, the
"time" requirement notably kicks in and applies to both active
participation and leadership (requirements 1 and 5 in each
rank). This is a huge key. Now, in addition to accomplishing
personal tasks (no set time), the Scout is now aware that he
must be active and a leader for sustained, specified periods
of time. My son sat at Second Class for about a year. No
problem, I let him. One day, he decided, on his own, that he'd
been Second Class long enough, too long even. Within about
four months, he made Star.

BTW, I am not the SM or an ASM in my son's Troop for two very
good reasons. First, I do not want to DIRECTLY influence his
pace or his advancement. I personally thought he was appointed
to Patrol Leader too soon. But, he grew into the position --
So, I was wrong. I thought he wasn't ready for Star. But, he
impressed his SM, advanced and grew into it -- So, I was
wrong, again. Both times, my son rose to meet the bar when I
thought he was even ready to try. What a disservice it would
have been for me to unknowingly hold him back. That's the
second reason. (BTW, my son’s SM recently witnessed his own
two sons make Eagle, under his Scoutmastership. I sat on both
of their Eagle Boards.)

EAGLE SCOUT…

For Eagle, the candidate must:

1) accomplish personal tasks (no set time, other than "aging
out"),
2) be active and in a leadership role for a sustained,
specified period of time, and
3) execute an Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project.

So, add 12 months for Eagle. Why? In my experience, most Eagle
candidates will juggle only 1 or 2 of the 3 portions of the
Eagle requirements at a time, while also managing school,
sports, etc. Even at 39 months (total), this would make a lot
of 14-year old Eagles; and we know that ain't average.

So, there's more to it... And some of it's gonna hurt.

The trail to Eagle is a long one; but, it's not a marathon...
it's a trail. And depending upon the (mental, emotional and
physical) terrain and the Scout's desire and dedication,
regardless of the adult coaching, the Scout’s pace will
change. And that's okay… because the goal is to complete the
mission, not to win a race.

Although maturity is NOT a requirement, let’s just pad 9 to 48
more months for a kid to make Eagle due to distractions; some
self-imposed, some not. Somewhere between 14 and 18, ALL
Scouts will have to deal with some very serious issues, for
example... a death in the family; getting over-loaded in
school, sports, Scouts and part-time jobs [girlfriends ain't
cheap]; drugs and alcohol; and, of course, just plain
surviving the rite of passage from childhood into manhood.

Adults Leaders should strive to ensure the check points along
the trail for each rank remain as consistent as possible for
all participants. While, conversely, the Scout must also
learn, as early as possible, that the pace was actually
designed to be variable for his own benefit. And, for the most
part, it’s up to him.

Comparing advancement progression "time-wise" is a delicate
task. Far more important is helping the Scout realize where HE
believes HE should be... and why... and what HE needs to do to
get to the next step… and how long HE thinks it should take
HIM to get there. What we think is normal is irrelevant. It’s
all in his head… The older Scouts (who are making rank) show
the younger Scouts that, “If he can do it, I can too.” And we
adults simply need to guide and coach each boy to win the
battles in his mind, what I call the “mindfield.”

Too many times, I’ve seen a kid (pushed to) make First Class
in six months, who later stalled out at Star or Life. In
recent years, however, I've seen kids "coached" to recognizing
they've been Tenderfoot or Second Class or whatever long
enough, based on their own estimation, and from that day
forward, he becomes cognizant of where he's at or where he
needs to be... and is then willing to be mentored, rather than
simply compared to his peers. I promise you, he'll get enough
of that out of them.
_________________
Bob Smith, OA, NESA, DAV
ADC, Apache District

If you can read this, thank a teacher... If you can read it in
English, thank a Veteran.

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Guneukitschik
Life

Joined: 02 Aug 2004
Posts: 162
Location: Waynesboro, PA
Posted: 05 Aug 2004 09:18 pm Post subject:

In our troop it seems that most of the scouts advance at a
rate of 1 rank per year once they are first class...This all
depends on how active they are(school, band, sports, etc.)
sometimes they advance quicker....and sometimes slower....
every scout is different so there is no right or wrong amount
of time between ranks.

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[syck03]

We have some sout who advance fast and sone who advance very slow. We try to work with the ones who are not advancing but with some of them nothing works. I have a scout who has been first class for about 2 years. He excuse is that he dont want to do the merit badges.

[cballman]

Paul we have a few of those scouts in our troop also but at the same we have had to make a decision what do we do about these boys and we figured out that if they just at least make a good effort and dont cause any trouble than at least they are active and maybewe can still reach them. but it is not caused by lack of leaders it is just an age old dilemia that some are interested and some just want to lay back.

[Guneukitschik]

There will always be those scouts that just like to go camping, etc. and that's it....they don't care about the advancement! I agree as long as they don't become a disruption to the system...then maybe they will still get part of the program!

[Rick Tyler]

Once a scout reaches First Class, I stop worrying about his advancement. If he likes hiking and paddling and sailing and camping and fishing and service projects and all the other things we do, but doesn't care about Eagle Scout very much, I don't care either.

A boy that is all about having fun with his friends in the outdoors is fine with me. He can catch the good parts of scouting without ever advancing past First Class.

On the other hand, if a scout hasn't made First Class in 18-24 months (barring disabilities or extenuating circumstances) he likely has not been active in his patrol, and doesn't enjoy scouting. Every 13-year-old Tenderfoot I've known was 1) not a "good" scout, and 2) gone before he turned 15.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I have to disagree with you Rick. Going back through our records, I see most of our Eagle scouts didn’t make 1st class until about the 2-year mark and they all made it to Eagle. I still don’t agree with the 1st year – 1st class thinking. I think this is a terrible idea that someone looking at the program from a business point of view came up with.

Why is it everyone wants to push these kids through the ranks and yet a boy can be in scouts for a minimum of 6 years. So lets hurry up and have a bunch of Eagle Scouts before they’re old enough to drive. Yup, that’s maturity!

[Guneukitschik]

I believe the reason behind the removal of the waiting periods between ranks up to First Class was to help the Scout advance faster therefore making him WANT to stay in scouts....

I think this may work in some cases....However I personally agree with Canoe... The BSA is producing a group of young Eagle Scouts of which a large majority will not live up to the expectations of an "Eagle Scout" They will earn their rank and move on...before they are 16. I think this is in part why Venturing was created....a way to try and keep the older scouts somewhat involved after Boy Scouts!

Either way... National screwed up a system that seemed to work fine in our district.

[optimist]

Just a reminder, this thread was supposed to be about rank advancement after First Class

[ICanCanoeCanU]

But that's just it Optimist. The separation of before and after 1st class is what most folks think of when they talk about advancement. Like the only goals are before and after and this is what I disagree with. The scouts I referred to which made Eagle had many requirements met (at several ranks) along the way during the two year period before they reached 1st class. Before reaching 1st class most had participated at summer camp for two summers now and had several badges including at least one and usually two ER. This meant that by the time they reached 1st class, the staples of the program were second nature and the boy had had time to grow in the program. Entering the progress towards Star, they we’re ready (with skills & knowledge) to hold a position which now let them grow with responsibility. Now with several years to go, they balanced earning badges, holding positions, and advanced in the higher ranks. The new way seems to encourage two goals. Hurry up and get 1st class, now do the ER MB’s and shazzzam, you have an Eagle Scout. To add in the Venture as a part of the Boy Scout program (meant for those already with the Eagle Rank but still able to participate) is no longer making Eagle the top of the line and in return is deflating the value of what an Eagle Scout is. I feel this is a business decision by national to keep the numbers up and show an exaggerated number of youth going above and beyond even though troops can incorporate a Venture program in with the troop as an incentive for the younger scouts to look forward to after reaching the age of 14.

So to answer to original question, I think the entire process should be taken at a slower pace. I think (if I must make reference to beyond 1st class) each rank should take a year or more to achieve.

[optimist]

I'm merely doing the job of any good moderator, reminding you that what you are talking about is not what the original author wanted to discuss.

[Rick Tyler]

I have to disagree with you Rick. Going back through our records, I see most of our Eagle scouts didn’t make 1st class until about the 2-year mark and they all made it to Eagle.

I actually wrote "if a scout hasn't made First Class in 18-24 months (...) he likely has not been active in his patrol, and doesn't enjoy scouting." Isn't that pretty much the same as saying "about the 2-year mark"?

I still don’t agree with the 1st year – 1st class thinking. I think this is a terrible idea that someone looking at the program from a business point of view came up with.

We have lots of guys that make First Class in 12-18 months, but less than 12 months is unusual. I agree that "First Class in a year" is overrated, and overhyped.

Why is it everyone wants to push these kids through the ranks and yet a boy can be in scouts for a minimum of 6 years. So lets hurry up and have a bunch of Eagle Scouts before they’re old enough to drive. Yup, that’s maturity!

I think you meant "maximum of six years," right?

I agree with you about "pushing the boys through the ranks," but I do thinke we owe it to our scouts to allow the boys who want to go fast to do so. I am SO not interested in a Board of Review telling a scout something like, "we don't want to see you again for a year." (True story, I know of a Troop Committee that has told this to at least three scouts.)

So to answer to original question, I think the entire process should be taken at a slower pace. I think (if I must make reference to beyond 1st class) each rank should take a year or more to achieve.

Earning the Eagle Scout rank means that a scout has fulfilled the requirements for Eagle Scout as laid out in the Boy Scout Handbook -- nothing more and nothing less. The requirements don't include having a driver's license, adult-level maturity, or leaping tall buildings at a single bound. Add nothing, delete nothing. If a scout completes all the requirements to the satisfaction of his Scoutmaster and several Boards of Review at age 14, more power to him. Any boy who works hard at scouting should be able to earn the Eagle rank, even if he isn't the world's best leader, or the smartest, or the best athlete.

(I want to make it clear here that I am not attributing this belief to Canoe. I haven't read Canoe saying that. I have met more than one scouter who talks like making Eagle Scout is equivalent to earning the Medal of Honor. It's not. I apologize if this sounded like an attack on Canoe.)

At least around here, that is not a big deal. I've seen about 10 boys achieve Eagle Scout in our troop in the last four years, and most have been 17. Only one was 15, and none were younger.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Nice catch Rick. My reading and thinking we're crossed on some.

No I meant 6 years minimum. Assuming not many scouts joined past 12 and some as young as 10 1/2. But yeah, either way close.

I agree nothing more, nothing less. I just don't think most 14 year olds have truely spent enough time in the program. I would never turn a scout away at a BOR, or tell them not to come back for a year, if they went through the SMC. Your right, that's wrong.

Before being involoved in the program I heald an Eagle Scout in very high regards. I assumed this meant they devoted their adolescent and teenage years to a program taking many years to complete. btw - I have never seen a 14 year old Eagle in our troop. I think the overall program should take longer than just a few years. Sorry optimist, still not the main topic here but had to correct my position.

[Guneukitschik]

Most of the 14-15 year old Eagle Scouts that I've seen are being constantly pushed by their parents.... The average scout never seems to complete Eagle by this young age... I also agree that I would never turn one away at BOR....I to feel that there is a certain "expectation" placed upon the Eagle Scout, not only from fellow Boy Scouts but from those outside the Scouting program.

[mommatoodle]

Ok, I have held my tongue up until now. My oldest son dropped out of scouts after a year and a half. He joined the same troop as the rest of his webelos patrol. Having never been involved in boy scouts, I as a parent didn't know any better about making sure the troop fit the boy. He had a miserable time. He made tenderfoot in 4 months and was laughed at by the older boys and new boys because he advanced. This particular troop didn't push or work on anything during troop meetings. My son wanted to work on mb's such as atomic energy, oceanography etc. No one else did and they constantly made life miserable because he liked academic things. My son quit, wants nothing to do with scouts. My middle son looked at several troops and did not go with the crowd to the either of the two troops that are involved with our cub pack. He was extremely excited about the troop he joined. He has set goals for himself and is following his own time table. Both of these two boys loved cubs, one has gone on, one hasn't. The guiding leadership of the one troop destroyed it for my oldest. He still has four years before he turns 18 and his brother keeps trying to get him to come back to scouts.

I have also seen boys who loved doing lashings and win competitions for gateways etc. who never made it past first class. They loved camping, canoeing, etc, but never wanted to work on merit badges. They learned the material and were extremely knowledgable in areas of first aid, safety etc. but could have cared less about the badges. Does this make them less of a scout? I don't think so, They are getting out of scouts what they are putting in to it.

Scouts will advance at their own rate, based on their personal makeup. When a boy is ready he will tackle the job. If he comes in and just enjoys the activities for a year or two, that doesn't mean he won't make it. He make decide one day, hey, I want to get to eagle, let me get in gear. Then watch out. He will suprise you!

Some young eagles are pushed by the parents. I have seen in my middle son's troop (his patrol actually) just this push. My son finished all requirement last weekend on a canoe trip for first class. The trip was the only thing he needed. When he was asked by two of the parents (their sons are in his patrol) if he had finished first class, he said yes, he just needed his sm conference and bor. These parents actually went and got their son's books and told their son's that they had to do this and that because they couldn't let my son out rank them. (big story behind this, that's for another topic!) These boys are not learning the things they need. I know my son has earned his rank, I have not pushed him, he has pushed himself. In fact I have a 6 foot tripod in my back yard that he brought home. It was his camp gadget. It is a teepee, shower area, etc.

Before we can say one way or another that a scout will or won't make it, we have to look at all of the circumstances, parents, troop, child, before we can say anything.

just my 2 cents.

[cballman]

Mommatoodle

boy you said a mouthful but all true for scouting and troops. just because it is a boy scout troop they are are different in some ways good or bad. Please just dont hold your tongue that often again also i would hope that you could encourge your oldest son. but remember not all boys want to be in scouts.

keep up the good work

[dad69]

The last 2 summer camps that the troop went to had special programs for rank advancement. My observation was that the boys that attended got most of the requirements for 2nd and 1st class signed, but did not retain/understand a lot of it. We try and work on the fundamentals on campouts to reinforce their knowledge. But they are at meetings every week and they attend the campouts. They are involved.

[T305TG]

FOR FASTER RANK ADVANCEMENT GO TO TRAIL TO EAGLE AT SUMMER CAMPS WHERE IT IS OFFERED... IT WILL INCREASE RATE ADVANCEMENT RATE GREATLY...

[T305TG]

RANK**

[dparker]

FOR FASTER RANK ADVANCEMENT GO TO TRAIL TO EAGLE AT SUMMER CAMPS WHERE IT IS OFFERED... IT WILL INCREASE RATE ADVANCEMENT RATE GREATLY...

Chris, I see you are making posts in different threads on the site. I have not gone through them all yet, so sorry if this is a duplicate! In the online world, writing in caps generally denotes yelling or anger. Clearly this is not the case for your posts, but I just wanted to let you know.

Edit: Looks like RWSmith let you know in this thread: http://www.meritbadge.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?t=8. Of course it was the very next thread I would read!