Does your troop follow the zero tolerance policy?

[dparker]

Left handed smoke shifter hunts, looking for 20 feet of left handed shore line, etc. are done in good fun. The older Scouts who went through these are itching to put the new Scouts through them! There is nothing damaging about them. Now if a Scout doesn't want to participate he doesn't have to.

How does the Scout know if he is "participating"? He doesn't know what these things are, so he will not be able to tell if it is a joke or not. How is embarassing a Scout or making them look silly and/or stupid "good fun"? Are the older Scouts looking forward to these activities because they are "fun" or because they were duped and want to do the same?

Zero Tolerance has no place in Scouting. Under Zero Tolerance if a Scout calls another Scout a moron instead of apologizing & getting the talk about about "if ya can't say something nice..." he is gone! Bad policy!.

That is a pretty extreme example, but doesn't the Zero Tolerance policy mean that if it occurs, the offender is advised that such behavior is not allowed? If it continues to happen, as with any offense, harsher action may be required.

There are lots of other ways to have fun and build friendships than at the expense of others, good intentions or otherwise. We should be building these boys' self esteem and confidence, not the opposite. Just my $0.02.

[evmori]

That might be an extreme example but Zero Tolerance is just what it says - no wiggle room regardless of the offense.

How many kids have been hurt (physically or emotionally) from smoke shifter & the ilk hunts? How many after realizing they have been duped can't wait till their turn? How many put up with way more abuse at school or - God forbid - home?

Everything for kids these days is too scheduled. Kids don't know how to make their own fun if it isn't planned for them.

[BM_Crawford]

Left handed smoke shifter hunts, looking for 20 feet of left handed shore line, etc. are done in good fun. The older Scouts who went through these are itching to put the new Scouts through them! There is nothing damaging about them. Now if a Scout doesn't want to participate he doesn't have to.

How does the Scout know if he is "participating"? He doesn't know what these things are, so he will not be able to tell if it is a joke or not. How is embarassing a Scout or making them look silly and/or stupid "good fun"? Are the older Scouts looking forward to these activities because they are "fun" or because they were duped and want to do the same?

Zero Tolerance has no place in Scouting. Under Zero Tolerance if a Scout calls another Scout a moron instead of apologizing & getting the talk about about "if ya can't say something nice..." he is gone! Bad policy!.

That is a pretty extreme example, but doesn't the Zero Tolerance policy mean that if it occurs, the offender is advised that such behavior is not allowed? If it continues to happen, as with any offense, harsher action may be required.

There are lots of other ways to have fun and build friendships than at the expense of others, good intentions or otherwise. We should be building these boys' self esteem and confidence, not the opposite. Just my $0.02.

I agree with that 100% If there is anywhere in the world that a policy like this should take place it is within scouting.

[dparker]

That might be an extreme example but Zero Tolerance is just what it says - no wiggle room regardless of the offense.

Maybe I don't understand the policy then. Is there a link to where it says that if this happens the Scout has to be expelled? I always understood the rule to mean that it is not allowed under any circumstance, thus the "Zero-tolerance" name.

How many kids have been hurt (physically or emotionally) from smoke shifter & the ilk hunts? How many after realizing they have been duped can't wait till their turn? How many put up with way more abuse at school or - God forbid - home?

I don't know how many boys have been truly negatively impacted by the specific examples you state, but that is irrelevant. We are putting the Scout in a situation that could embarass or shame them. Why are we trying to justify that at all? As far as wanting to do it themselves to others, that still does not speak to the point of their motiviation for wanting to do it. Now those boys want to have "good fun" at the expense of other Scouts. The cycle sadly continues! Finally, just because it happens elsewhere, isn't a good argument why it should happen in Scouts. Scouting should be a shelter from many things that happen in the home or at school.

Everything for kids these days is too scheduled. Kids don't know how to make their own fun if it isn't planned for them.

I am not quite sure how this fits into the discussion. The boys should be planning their own activities. If they are not, there are larger issues than what constitutes hazing or not. Being spontaneous does not have to be at the expense of others.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Sorry all but I think the smoke shifter stuff is not over the line. What about the scout that can't pass the swim requirements, you think he doesn't hear about it from his peers, or from his own inner self? Anything can lead to embarrassment. We need to teach the youth to rise above the difficulties in life AND have a good time too. A sense of humor can go along way in the world.

[BM_Crawford]

Yes but they can learn that anywhere in life and its not a lesson scouting teaches. Scouting teaches you to be curtious, kind, cheerful, and not the negative. Kids can learn all the bad stuff in life from school lets leave scouting to the positive.

thats just my $00.10

[optimist]

Hazing prohibited.
Physical hazing and initiations are prohibited and may not be included as
part of any Scouting activity.

The BSA does not use the term Zero Tolerance and I would ask others here to please stop using that term as well. It does not apply. Hazing and initiations are prohibited, plain and simple. If this type of thing occurs at a Scouting activity, someone has broken the rules and action should be taken to correct the problem. What action is taken is dependent upon the circumstances.

The disagreement here seems to be over the definition of initiation. The BSA does not specifically define it so I borrowed the following from Dictionary.com:

in·i·ti·a·tion ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-nsh-shn)
n.

The act or an instance of initiating.
The process of being initiated.
The condition of being initiated.
A ceremony, ritual, test, or period of instruction with which a new member is admitted to an organization or office or to knowledge.
The condition of being knowledgeable.

Based on what I read above, initiation occurs everyday in the Scouting program. After all, last time I looked, most of us have joining ceremonies. I don't think we're going to stop our Webelos Crossovers anytime soon. Referring to every juvenile powerplay as harassment won't stop it from happening. Boys will always find a way of determining who is top dog in the pecking order.

I feel our job is not to stop it with an iron fist but to redirect it into more humane methodologies. Since most of the time we won't even know when it's happening, the best way we can handle this responsibility is to provide a good example. To me, the best example is simply showing the good alternatives and doing them on a regular basis. Greet all new members and guests with a firm handshake. Acknowledge good work regularly. Have lots of positive ceremonies, large ones and small ones.

Another important example is how we handle inappropriate behavior. When it occurs, we should measure the degree of infraction and handle it appropriately. As can be seen from the reaction of many here, left-handed smoke shifters are pretty far down on the priority list for many people. However, a hole in the wall of the girl's bathroom should be near the top. If someone disagreed with me about the smoke shifter, I'd make a short statement about the way I see it and walk away. If someone disagreed with me about the hole in the wall, I'd want to have a long talk with someone who had the authority to make sure that person is set straight or removed from the program.

[evmori]

Based on the dictionary definition, I don't see how smoke shifter hunts are hazing! They aren't required for membership or anything else in the BSA.

[optimist]

You could say that but it wouldn't hold up if it went to court. Hazing doesn't have to be formalized or required to occur. If a new member feels peer pressure to do something he knows is wrong or is simply tricked into doing because he doesn't know better, a court of law would probably consider it an initiation.

You might feel that nobody would ever go to court over a smoke shifter incident but in today's litigious society I wouldn't count on it.

[evmori]

We are making a mountain out of a mole hill!

[dparker]

We are making a mountain out of a mole hill!

Ed, in a large majority of the cases, it may very well be that there is no harm done and the subject of the prank laughs it off and looks forward to his chance to do the same later.

My concern is that remaining percentage where a boy takes offense, feels ashamed or embarassed to the point that he no longer wishes to participate in Scouts because he doesn't feel safe. Shouldn't all the Scouts in a troop feel safe and secure when they are together? The practice singles out a Scout and makes him look foolish. How is that in line with any of the Scout ideals? If the activity is not building the boy up, then one must question its usefulness in Scouting at all.

"Mole hill" or not, we need to look at our activities and see what Scouting purpose is being accomplished with them. Are we living the first point of the Scout law by sending a Scout off to look for an animal or some other object that does not exist?

Anyway, I will get off my soapbox now! I would choose to err on the side of caution in this matter. If you still feel this is ok, you may want to talk to your DC or DE and see how they feel about it. In our council, we have been told in multiple training sessions that hazing is absolutely forbidden in Scouts, so I must that advice them in my own troop. Your council may be different.

[evmori]

Dave,
To err on the side of caution is a good thing. But, to err on the side of caution to protect your own hide isn't a valid reason. Smoke shifter hunts are no more hazing than OA ordeals!

[scoutmasterbob]

I think you have to look at the intent of the snipe hunt or the left handed smoke shifter prank. What is the purpose? Is it going to make him a better scout? Is it going to help him get the snipe hunting merit badge? Will it make him feel like he is welcome in the troop?

These things are made to embarrass the scout or to make him feel foolish in front of every one else. That is not Scoutings goal.

Instead of pulling these pranks on a new or younger scout, why cant the boys say welcome to the patrol, how can we help you advance or make you feel welcome.

There are enough teasing and taunting that go on outside of scouting, to bring it into scouting degrades us all.

Scouting, troop meetings and scout camps should be safe havens for a scout, somewhere he can feel comfortable about going and feel safe when he gets there.

If you condone or participate in those activities because its "all in good fun" or "boys will be boys" Then I think you are wrong and I think your actions are detrimental to the goals of scouting.

There are other ways to have fun as a group, to build team spirit and troop togetherness and not at the expense of another scout.

I am not quoting from anything, this is my opinion, as one of those scouts who got teased and pranked every time I went to troop meeting or on a campout. I have been down that road, and I will do everything in my power as a leader to not let that happen in my troop.

[scoutmasterbob]

Here is a Quote from the Guide to Safe Scouting, page 6 Members Responsibilities:

Member Responsibilities
All members of the Boy Scouts of America are expected to conduct themselves in accordance with the principles set forth in the Scout Oath and Law. Physical violence, hazing, bullying, theft, verbal insults, and drugs and alcohol have no place in the Scouting program and may result in the revocation of a Scout's membership in the unit.

If confronted by threats of violence or other forms of bullying from other youth members, Scouts should seek help from their unit leaders or parents

[RWSmith]

We are making a mountain out of a mole hill!

Uh, no sir... with all due respect, "we" are not. Like it or not, this is the very core of Scoutings problem... and it has been for many years. Think about it this way... There are (basicly) three reasons a first year Scout will quit... 1) The program isn't giving him what we promised (that's another issue!), 2) He doesn't like Scout"ing" -- things like nature, the great outdoors, camping, backpacking, canoeing, swimming, fishing, or 3) He doesn't like the way he's being treated.

Like I said, the first item is a for another thread. I'll just say, for now, the "program" is the part we have control over.

As for the second, if a kid really does not like nature, the great outdoors, camping, backpacking, canoeing, swimming, fishing... you get the point... then he's not going to stick with the program. And he would be better served by another organization. Ya' can't fix this problem, no matter how hard you try. And some of us spend a lot of time trying.

As for the third reason, if he doesn't like the way he's being treated, more often than not, he'll SAY he doesn't lke "camping" to get out gracefully. This way, he avoids conflicts and confrontations. If he goes home ratting on little Johnny for picking on him over the camp-out, Dad's (or Mom's) probably going to blow a gasket. What the adults forget though, is that little Timmy still has to go to school with the punk! In truth, this issue is actually part of the first item... FAILURE TO DELIVER THE PROMISE! Whenever a Scout is allowed to be mis-treated, we're definitely not delivering the promise. A joke about a left-handed smoke shifter, for example, is okay when EVERYBODY involved laughs. No big deal. But, any time a child, any child, feels intimidated, harassed or bullied (verbally or physically) at any Scout activity, and we fail to deal with it, then we have instantly forefieted the battle in that child's mind whether he should stay or go.

Before you guys (and gals) start flaming me... go back a read my prior posts in this thread.

[evmori]

I have never heard of a boy quiting Scouts because he went on a smoke shifter hunt and I have been an adult leader for over 15 years! The core of Scoutings problem? Don't think so! If you feel this is the core of Scouting's problems, then I really feel sorry for the Scouts in you units!

[scoutmasterbob]

Help us understand how these activities further the goals of scouting, or helps make them a better person, I just dont see it.

Enlighten us, evmori. Frankly, you worry me.

[evmori]

Help us understand how these activities further the goals of scouting, or helps make them a better person, I just don't see it.

Enlighten us, evmori. Frankly, you worry me.

I have never said these activities further the goals of Scouting. Since you seem to think this detracts from the goals of Scouting, how about helping us understand that.

As for making someone a better person these exercises can teach discernment.

I worry you

Interesting because if you believe this is the core of Scouting's problem, then it is I who is worried about you!

[dparker]

Scouters, before this discussion degenerates any further, let's try to keep away from the personal attacks and talk about the issues in a friendly manner. I know there are strong feelings on both sides, but we don't further our own arguments by getting hostile.

At this point, maybe it's time to agree to disagree? There are lots of other worthwhile topics on this board that can use our input. I think it is fairly clear how everyone feels on the subject and unless people have new information, I just don't see this thread progressing much further.

[Lynda J]

When my boys first moved up into the troop there was quite a bit of harrassment from the older boys. The SM dressed the older boys down and basically told them if it continued their parents would be called and they would be sent home. But what also happened was that when it came time to elect boys for SPL and OA the older boys suddenly discovered that the "cubies" now out numbered them. Two of the boys that did a lot of the teasing were received only one vote each for OA. While the three that did not do teasing received like 7 each. Rude awakening. Also since the younger patrol has now completed the National Honor Partol award and is far more focused the older boys have suddenly started showing much more respect. Yes there is still some teasing but not anything like it once was,and most of it now is simply good natured fun.
Our troop has done a lot of growing since December. It went from 6 boys to 19. ANd just after the first of the year will add 5 more Webelo's.