Multiple position registration

[dparker]

Ok, I hope I can explain this well! Our troop is chartered by one of 2 congregations that meet in our chapel. We look at our relationship as kind of a sister troop (brother maybe?!). Recently, both troops have been struggling to provide enough leadership for 2 relatively small troops. We decided to try and pool our resources.

We would still charter separately, but we wanted to share leaders. So, for instance, I could be an ASM in both troops, or a commitee member in both troops, whateve the case may be. I called the council office and the registrar told me on two separate occasions that a leader could only be registered to ONE and ONLY ONE leadership position in the council.

When I brought this information back, I was told that the council was wrong and that several of the leaders present had been double-registered previously. So, my question is what you all know about this issue.

Have you ever been double-registered (or more)? Have you tried and been told no and given a reason why? I know at some point in the future, I will be involved in both Cubs and Boy Scouts at the same time as my boys grow older, so does that mean I can't do both?

[wagionvigil]

AT one time I was registered as a SM, Crew Adv., Lodge Adv.

[cballman]

well i must be in trouble again because at one time iwas a committie person in boy scouts cubmaster in cubscouts, merit badge counselor in council and on the district training staff and also roundtable staff. wow and its only an hour a week

[BM_Crawford]

It sounds like TO ME anyway that they are just trying to be pig-headed and intimidate you guys. Its a shame, I can tell you are doing everything in your power for these kids (the fact that you would charter under two troops is evident of that.) I think you should get a petition going or maybe see what national has to say about it.

[don]

You cannot be requested with 2 positions within the same unit. But you can be requested with 2 different units with the same or different positions. But it is not the best way to do scouting.
Does these troops have different COs? they must or it would be the same unit.

[dparker]

Don, yes the CO's are different.

[don]

requested = recruited from my last post, spell check and in a hurry makes for a bad message!
The people that work at council do not know all of the rules, no one does, lets not badmouth these people, it is not like they are getting rich.

dparker
The best way to handle this is to have them show you or tell you where that rule is, I knew at one time but I do not remember.
BUT How many scouts is there in both troops? Are you sure that combining would not be the best? For the scouts and adult leaders?
Of course if you called your DE and said that a troop is folding because you cannot register with two units, I am sure that rule would be explained the the council. DEs really do not like to see units drop.

[BM_Crawford]

Good idea Don! That's probably the best way to go about it.

[optimist]

It's true that Scouts and Scouters may be members of multiple units and hold multiple positions. What hasn't been mentioned here and what I believe to be the problem is that each member is considered to have a primary position. The primary position is the one that has the seven dollar fee with it each year. All other positions are secondary and do not count towards the minimum requirements. If you're going to have two charters, you will have to meet the minimum requirements for each seperate from the other.

[scoutmasterbob]

I have tried to research this because I know it can be done. I am registered as the Scoutmaster in my troop, and also registered as a roundtable staff member, but one is a troop level and one is a district level.

I found this in the Guide to Safe Scouting, page 7:

A unit leader may not serve simultaniously in any other position within the same unit.

Then it refers you to the Rules and Regulations of the BSA.

I think they mean that a Scoutmaster cannot also be registered as the Cubmaster.

In the situation that dparker mentioned, if you are combining two sperate scout groups that are also chartered seperate from one another, I dont think it is neccessary to register under both charters.
Have the SM from each group work in tandem or select one to be over the two groups.

When you have awards to be presented each group will have to record there awards seperate from the others, and each chartered group will have to keep there own set of paper work.

I see this alot where I live in Utah. My unit is sponsored by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS or Mormon Church) the geographic area of each congregation or ward is not very big and it is not unusual to have a small Troop to work with. I currently have 9 scouts including the new scout patrol. I see units combine alot for meetings or campouts.

[dparker]

Bob, we are in a very similar situation. We have about 12 boys in our unit and a little more in the other. One of the concerns was who would sign off requirements and do SM conferences. We currently share a committee that handles all advancement, fund raising, tour permits, etc. We will have a couple of years where we will be short on boys, but then there is a decent crop of them that are 7 years old right now. So, they still want to keep the charter for both troops because at some point, there will be a need.

I know for our Troop, it has been chartered for 38 years, so there is a lot of history involved.

This whole issue may be moot, however, as I have heard that we may start meeting separately in a couple of months.

[scoutmasterbob]

If each group has their own SM then let each SM take care of his troop.
Run your troop as before, just have patrol meetings and other activities together, but if you want to each maintain your own charters the "paperwork" needs to be done speratly.

My troop is going to celebrate the 35th year in 2005, going to have a little party and do some remembering.

I have been in this troop since I was a cub scout, never had another Troop number on my sleeve. Troop 538. Done 10 years as a youth, and 13 years as an adult.

Sorry Im off subject.....

[BM_Crawford]

Oh ok I didnt realize it was in policy thanks for the update Scoutmaster Bob, I didnt realize there was a policy on that rule.

[don]

A unit leader may not serve simultaneously in any other position within the same unit.

SMbob
Wouldn't this mean a you cannot be a ASM and a MC within a troop or a CM and a MC in a pack?
It says same unit. a pack and a troop would be a different unit. So you could be a ASM and a CM.

[Guneukitschik]

I am currently registered as the following:
TROOP COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN
CREW COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN
PACK COMMITTEE MEMBER
And I guess you could count Merit Badge Counselor (although not a leadership position) but you still are a registered member.

I've always understood the rule to mean that you cannot "officially" serve in two positions within the same unit.

[wagionvigil]

this is simple and everyone has hit it in some way. You can only be registered once with a unit. I cannot turn a Charter in with any name listed more than once.

[RWSmith]

David,

I consider this to be the definiitive answer to your question. The author's post is from a 1998 thread on another site... Go here: http://www.scouter.com/Archives/Scouts-L/199811/0753.asp. Or, you can read it now... I give James full credit. It's long, but it's complete.

Adult Dual/Multiple Registrations (Bit Long)
James A. Sheckels (sheckej@EARTHLINK.NET)
Fri, 20 Nov 1998 10:27:07 -0500

Over the last week there have been several posts regarding dual registration or role filling within units and districts. Many responses have been made, some accurate, some inaccurate, but most without referencing the pertinent material fully. (And if you know me, you know I like knowing the full story ).

Of course, the final decision rests with the local units and districts/councils as to how they will handle any given situation. What follows is simply a referral to pertinent BSA references, along with some of my institutional knowledge if applicable. First, let's talk about what dual registered and multiple registered ,means.

Dual Registration - This refers to being registered in two separate entities (two units, a unit and district or council, etc). The person dual registered actually has paid for the registration in both positions. This can be across Councils. The main advantage to this type registration, as I see it, is that the person will receive all mailings related to both positions. Essentially, the person has two (or more) primary registrations.

Multiple Registration - refers to having one paid (or primary) registration, and one or more secondary (unpaid) registrations. This registration cannot happen across Councils. The main advantage here seems to be economical only - paying only one time. The person in this situation has to decide where their primary position will be, as it will effect the mailings they receive. Each Council most likely has it's own policy regarding multiple registration and where the primary position should be.

In my case, I am a multiple registered Scouter. My primary position is as Chartered Organization Representative, with a multiple registration as Committee Chairman for our Boy Scout Troop. I am also multiple registered as an Assistant Council Commissioner.

As to tenure for training awards, one must be registered in a position to accrue tenure. This applies to any type registration (single, multiple or dual), BUT - the same period of tenure MAY NOT be used for two separate awards for the same period of time. This is stated in the Leadership Training Committee Guide, #34169A, on page 32. The guide does not apply any restrictions to earning the awards based on registration type, but does state that the *council* leadership training committee is tasked with the responsibility for interpreting and approving the awards. Commissioners are tasked with certifying performance, and the council committee may designate others to approve certain requirements.

Now to the references concerning these registrations. The most readily available reference for the volunteer unit level leader is the Adult Application, #28-051N. On the inside of the front cover, left column, about 2/3 way down is a paragraph entitled "Qualifications". The last sentence of this paragraph states: "No one may register in more than one position in the same unit, except the chartered organization representative."

This speaks only to *registration*, not *performance*, but the intent is that the roles within a unit are separate and distinct one from the other. And objectivity is a desire also.

SO why can the CR be registered multiple in the same unit? This is actually a misnomer, as the position of CR actually IS NOT a unit position, rather it is a Council/District position. To best illustrate this point, consider that the CR represents the *chartered organization*, not the unit. Suppose a chartered partner has a pack and a troop. Each of these units have their own committee and unit leadership team, but both have the same CR. In other words, the CR should be the same person for *every* unit the sponsor has a charter for. There should not be a different CR for each unit.

Look at the Rules and Regulations of the BSA, #57-492.

In Article VIII, Adult Leadership, Section I, General, Clause 2 under the Designation section: "Unit Scooters All adult members registered with the unit, except the chartered organization representative who shall be considered a council Scouter." SO this person is registered on the unit charter (primary or multiple) but IS NOT a Unit Scouter.

In Article VI, Local Councils, Section 3, Local Units, Clause 7, Chartered Organization Representative: "...each chartered organization shall appoint a citizen of the United States, other than the unit leader or assistant unit leader, as its chartered organization representative to represent it as a member of the district committee and as a voting member of the local council."

The Unit Leader is defined in the same article, in Clause 9, Leadership: "Each Cub Scout Den and Webelos Den and each chartered Cub Scout Pack, Boy Scout Troop, Varsity Scout Team and Explorer Post shall have one citizen of the United States, 21 years of age or older, who shall be registered and serve as the unit or den leader. A unit leader may not serve simultaneously in any other position within the same unit." All adult leadership positions are discussed in Clause 10, Packs; Clause 11, Troops,; Clause 12, Teams; and Clause 13, Posts, which delineates the positions, their appointments and commissioning, requirements and responsibilities, privileges and opportunities.

These references detail that the unit leaders, or their assistants, shall not be *registered* NOR shall they *perform* in more than one position in the same unit. A little more restrictive than the wording on the Adult Application.

Now, looking to the BSA pamphlet "The Chartered Organization Representative", #33118A, which details the BSAs guidance on who the CR is, how s/he is appointed, and the responsibilities of the CR. This pamphlet states that the CR must be a member of the organization represented (page 11). This pamphlet states several times that the CR is the chartered organization representative (not the unit rep) to the District and Council and is a voting member of the District and Council.

Nowhere is it stated that a person cannot have more than one registration, be it primary or secondary, in separate units or levels (council/district) of Scouting. Again, local councils may have more strict policies on this issue, and they are within their rights to do so.

But, I hope, the above references should make it clear to us that:

(1) No one shall be registered or performing in more than one position in any single unit, excepting the CR.

(2) The CR represents the chartered partner, not the unit.

(3) The CR is a Council/District position (hey, that means silver tabs folks!).

(4) The CR must be a member of the organization represented.

(5) The CR cannot be a unit leader or assistant leader, but may be a unit committee member.

(6) That the above stipulations ensure a sound, objective and quality organization and program for our Scouts.

I now take a DEEEEEP breath and send this to the list!!

HAND!

YIS,

Jim Sheckels - I used to be a Bobwhite SE 308-7
1SG, US Army(Retired)
sheckej@earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~sheckej/
3501 Farm Circle Road Fayetteville, NC 28306-8303
(910)426-2766/(fax)2753
Southern Service Area Commissioner, Occoneechee Council #421/Lodge#104
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CC/CR T-742, Hope Mills,NC United Methodist Church - Member of NAUMS
The Nice Thing About TEAMWORK Is: Someone Is Always On Your Side!
<]:{>

[dparker]

And there it is! Wondeful answer! Thank for passing that along. I am printing this out.

[RWSmith]

And there it is! Wondeful answer! Thank for passing that along. I am printing this out.

Well, in that case... I guess this would be a good time to ask for a raise?