Another Attendance Question -- Completely Absent Scouts

[BM_Crawford]

very valid points commish.

[Mick Scouter]

I back you 100%.

[optimist]

In the courts, there is what's known as case law. This means that courts base their decisions on the decisions made by previous judges even though no law is written that directly addresses the case and sometimes even though there is law that conflicts with the court's decision.

In cases where troops have declined a Scout's advancement because he was not participating in troop activities and the Scout appealed, the BSA has consistently ruled that if he was registered he was active. This is not a myth.

[Woodbadgegirl]

Commish, I agree with you whole heartedly, but why would National contradict itself by telling me that?

I agree boys need to be there to advance, but I also agree that you can not add to or take away from advancement by making an attendance policy.

I beleive if the boys that are on the swim team are adsent for 3 months 100%, then maybe a leave of absence would be a good thing to consider. That way, they can avoid being voted into an area of responsibility and fail to meet those requirements.

JMHO

[commish3]

First let's separate the two "active requirements" and remember which was being discussed.

One requirement is to be active in yourr troop and patrol for X months".

This is the one that some say is based on being registered, but if you read the Boy Scout Handbook you will see that is incorrect.

In cases of advancement appeals the BSA makes decisions based on case by case circumstances. The main reason that adult decisions get overturned is from adults not following the program. If in the appealled decision the BSA discovers that any part of the advancement policies were handled incorrectly, they will decide in favor of the scout. In the case of troops making artificial attendance rules the BSA will not even look at the scout's attendance since the "troop rule" was in conflict with the advancement regulations. The BSA in that circumstance will say if the scout was registered then he advanceces.

In all cases the Boy Scout Handbook trumps everything. Nowhere in any resources of the BSA, in regards to advancement, does the BSA say that registered meets the advancement requirements.

Now you have to wonder how a scout could cmplete all the other advancement requirements and not be active in the unit?

This is from a discussion at Philmont Training Center with my calls and the director of BSA advancement.

The second requirement (and the one that was being discussed originally in this thread) is that the scout serve actively in a listed position of responsibility or complete a special project determined by the SM.

Now ask yourself how either can be done if the scout does not do the tasks required to do the job? You need to understand that these are task related goals and not strictly attendance based. What matters here is that the job gets done. Some of these jobs will require a certain ammount of attendance but both require that the scout attend to the tasks of the job.

In either requirement what is active is determined based on the individual scouts resources and job requirements not on a blanket requirement artificially created by the unit or unit leader.

But don't take my word or that of any individual on or off the internet. This is not where scouting is recorded or learned. Use the official resources of the BSA. Attend the training, learn the BSA program and no one else's. Use the BSA resources, if you want to learn the BSA program.
If you find anything to disprove what I have shared in a BSA resource then follow that. But a single decision based on a specific appeal does not a program method or procedure make.

[Mick Scouter]

Well stated Commish. I had to read that three times for everything to sink in but it is important and there are differences. Interestingly I would find it rare that a scout be absent and try to advance. If they are then they are probably in scouts for the wrong reason. However, as we have all encountered there are leaders that want to impose their rules. I believe that is why BSA will always rule on the side of the boy. Yes, Training, Training, and more Training but ........

[BM_Crawford]

With the exception of all scouts who are busy (trust me I'm in a high school marching band, I know how difficult schedualing can be. lol) if they are trying to advance and are not active (excluding those busy with other things, want to stress that so I don't give anyone the wrong idea) are usually speaking their parents words. I know a few kids in my troop who are never active but the parents are forcing them to "pretend" like they want to advance. Where the parents stands behind the kid and tells him and tells him what to say. That's what I've gathered from most non-attendies who "want" to advance and are not in any extracurricular activities.

[Billiken]

So here's how my new troop handles this situation (per the Committee Chairman):

The boys in question may not hold leadership positions during their swim season absences. The boys and their parents have agreed to this.

[ASM-142]

So here's how my new troop handles this situation (per the Committee Chairman):

The boys in question may not hold leadership positions during their swim season absences. The boys and their parents have agreed to this.

If a scout is elected as SPL how can he be denied holding that position. I understand that the boys and parents agreed to this, however, what happens if a boy is elected to SPL and then decides to do an outside activity. Is he automatically removed? What if he wants to continue being SPL and other then being at weekly meetings he is doing the job and showing leadership?

[Billiken]

If a scout is elected as SPL how can he be denied holding that position. I understand that the boys and parents agreed to this, however, what happens if a boy is elected to SPL and then decides to do an outside activity. Is he automatically removed? What if he wants to continue being SPL and other then being at weekly meetings he is doing the job and showing leadership?

Showing leadership to whom?

The boys are completely absent from ALLtroop meetings/events during the varsity swim season.

The boys who swim excuse themselves from the voting process if the time period being considered includes the swim season.

[wagionvigil]

Where does that fall into BSA Rules and Regulations?Again Troops Cannot set any rules of their own that affect advancement or any other BSA Rule, regulation or policy.

[ASM-142]

If a scout is elected as SPL how can he be denied holding that position. I understand that the boys and parents agreed to this, however, what happens if a boy is elected to SPL and then decides to do an outside activity. Is he automatically removed? What if he wants to continue being SPL and other then being at weekly meetings he is doing the job and showing leadership?

Showing leadership to whom?

The boys are completely absent from ALLtroop meetings/events during the varsity swim season.

The boys who swim excuse themselves from the voting process if the time period being considered includes the swim season.

There is leadership in planning activities even if they do not participate, there is guidance that can be given via the telephone or direct contact at school, etc

[Billiken]

wagionvigil: The scouts voluntarily exclude themselves from being candidates for leadership positions.


ASM-142: Again, the boys are completely/100% absent. No attendance whatsoever at ANY/ALL functions.


They also do not work on merit badges during that time. Obviously they certianly could if they wanted to. In addition, one of the guys drops membership in his church choir (can't make practice).

We're talking the type of competitive swimmers that shave their legs.......

[ASM-142]

What would be done if a scout did not voluntarily exclude himself from the voting?

How is this presented to new boys that join the troop? Do you tell them that this is what you do? What if new boys do not want to follow this current troop rule?

[Billiken]

What would be done if a scout did not voluntarily exclude himself from the voting?

How is this presented to new boys that join the troop? Do you tell them that this is what you do? What if new boys do not want to follow this current troop rule?

Must be present to lead. If you're an SPL and you COMPLETELY miss 3 months of a 6 month term I would say you have failed to complete the requirement.

Active leadership is the key term.

It's not presented to the new 5th graders when they join the troop.

[wagionvigil]

Where does this rule fit in the BSA rules?

[ASM-142]

What would be done if a scout did not voluntarily exclude himself from the voting?

How is this presented to new boys that join the troop? Do you tell them that this is what you do? What if new boys do not want to follow this current troop rule?

Must be present to lead. If you're an SPL and you COMPLETELY miss 3 months of a 6 month term I would say you have failed to complete the requirement.

Active leadership is the key term.

It's not presented to the new 5th graders when they join the troop.

If this is a troop rule then it shouyld be presented to new 5th graders before they join. This way they can have the choice to go to a troop does does not create its own rules and follows BSA rules.

Someone does not have to be present to lead. I am a manager whree a good amount of my staff is not in the office where I work. If you assign things to be done and follow-up and plan accordingly that is leadership.

I have been involved in troops where the SPL is at meetings but can not lead. Does he get credit for being there in your troop even if he is not leading?

[Billiken]

Where does this rule fit in the BSA rules?

As you know it's not.

However, the requirement specifies active leadership.

A Scouter must attest/sign-off on this requirement for advancement.
Therefore, the interpretation of active is subjective and at the descretion of the SM, ASMs, Troop Committee and members of the BOR.

Completely absent means completely inactive.

BOR question for someone with high absenteeism:

"List 5 leadership accomplishments while you were XXXX"

Remember we're not talking about time since last promotion, but the leadership requirements required for Star/Life/Eagle.

[Billiken]

Someone does not have to be present to lead. I am a manager where a good amount of my staff is not in the office where I work. If you assign things to be done and follow-up and plan accordingly that is leadership.

Follow-up.......You still receive e-mail, phone calls, faxes, and reports from this other office.

Again, these guys are GONE, ABSENT.

During their absence they are involved in our troop as much as they are in yours.

[ASM-142]

Where does this rule fit in the BSA rules?

As you know it's not.

Therefore this should not be a rule in your (or any) troop.