Eagle Palms - Why Wait?

[Scouting179]

While what we do may not be as written in the BSA guidelines, I feel we meet the intent by not having a father on the Board and by not being on the board if it the patrol I supervise.

Just one man's opinion...............

If your troop simply does not have enough committee members to follow the letter of the law and has made reasonable efforts in that area, I feel it would be wrong to hold up a Scout's advancement in this regard. A small troop in a rural area may well have to do what you do, meet the spirit of the law, in this case.

[JazerNorth]

When I was in scouts, and it wasn't that long ago, we used to be required to pass off the requirements to the BOR. I remember a couple of times that I didn't pass because I didn't know some of the requirements. It "used" to be required for the BOR to quiz the boys, but that has changed. The BOR member just may not know the new guidelines for the BOR. I like the new guides because it gives the BOR more room to understand and know the scout rather than get a regurgitation of his knowledge.

Just my opinion.

JazerNorth

[ASM-142]

... The BOR member just may not know the new guidelines for the BOR.

There is where training is critical. Not only to committee members who sit on the BOR but to the scouts as well so they know what to expect. Also, by training the scouts in this if the BOR goes off in the wrong direction he can politely ask them to come back to the purpose of the BOR.

[Lynda J]

Edbloom. What about getting memebers of your community involved.
Your Charter Rep is registered with your troop and can sit on a board.
For us the Mayor, Chief of Police and two local ministers are also registered with our troop. The Mayor was the SM of this troop several years ago. So many times we will ask them to sit on the boards. For one thing it gives us a bigger base of people to use and it improves our community relationships.

[ThunderingWind]

I guess it comes down to "we have never done it that way before." We have many parents stay at the meetings anway each week. And most are registered as ASMs or Committee members, if just to be able to drive the boys if needed.

I am just trying to understand the difference between the BSA Rules and BSA Guidelines.

The issue to me is that the boys who were just awarded their Eagle, were now in front of me seeking a Palm. The MBs used as "credit" were NOT earned AFTER the award date of Eagle. Only the waiting period seemed to be looked at.

So, is it a Rule or a Guideline that states the MBs used to earn a Palm are to be earned after the Date of Rank for Eagle? And if neither, please quote document name, chapter, page and line that explains this process in plain, clear English (not some funky words that takes the Supreme Court 30 years to upon to issue a ruling).

Again, jsut one man's opinion...just one man trying to learn more to provide a better program.

[PaulSWolf]

Very simple: Here is a direct quote from Boy Scout Requirements 2005 (33215A) - page 19

Eagle Palms

After becoming an Eagle Scout, you may earn Palms by completing the following requirements:

1. Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 3 months after becoming an Eagle Scout or after the award of your last Palm.
2. Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath (Promise) and Scout Law in your everyday life.
3. Make a satisfactory effort to develop and demonstrate leadership ability.
4. Earn five additional merit badges beyond those required for Eagle or last Palm.*.
5. Take Part in a Scoutmaster conference.
6. Complete your board of review.

You may wear only the proper combination of Palms for the number of merit badges you earned beyond the rank of Eagle. The Bronze Palm represents 5 merit badges, the Gold Palm 10, and the Silver Palm 15.

*Merit Badges earned any time since becoming a Boy Scout may be used to meet this requirement.

So a Scout with 26 Merit Badges at the time of his Eagle Board of Review may appear for his Bronze Palm Board of Review 3 months later, even if he has not earned any more merit badges, so long as he has met the other requirements (i.e leadership and SM Conference).

[Mrw]

Look at it this way, a boy who earns 10 merit badges, including at least four Eagle required ones, before he earns his tenderfoot, still needs to earn all the ranks and include the four months as First Class before he can ask for a SM conference and BOR for Star.

This is really no different.

[ThunderingWind]

Thank for the direct quote.

However, the language as you provide states the MBs "may be used" for credit.

It is the word "may" that is causing confusion. Be definition, this would give a Troop the room to interpret as to mean "allow if you want" or "do not allow if you want." And the Troop could interpret this to be applied on a case by case basis.

There needs to be only one way to do it (a rule) not many (a guideline).

The BSA National needs to rewrite this in very clear and consie language so that there can be NO misunderstanding as to the proper application of the requirements.

Again, however, I agree with SMs having the power to work with special needs youth as needed.

One man's opinion here. I am just trying to learn more.

[Mrw]

There is a specific application for Eagle palms. The instructions are quite clear when you fill it out about how to list the badges and which ones to use. - in the order they were earned, just like on the Eagle application itself.

I have found it easier as Advancement Chair to keep a palm application open for each boy as he becomes and Eagle. This way I can record the information as I get it for each badge and not have to look it up later.

[PaulSWolf]

Thank for the direct quote.

However, the language as you provide states the MBs "may be used" for credit.

It is the word "may" that is causing confusion. By definition, this would give a Troop the room to interpret as to mean "allow if you want" or "do not allow if you want." And the Troop could interpret this to be applied on a case by case basis.

No, this doesn't give the TROOP any option, it gives the SCOUT the option to use any merit badge he has earned, that hasn't already been used toward a rank advancement, toward the current advancement (i.e. toward the Eagle Palm).

The wording on the Eagle Palm Application, which can be seen at http://www.inwc-bsa.org/forms/epalm.pdf is

"NOTE: These merit badges may have been earned anytime since joining"

Remember it's the SCOUT who fills out the application, so the wording is directed to HIM, not to the SM.

There needs to be only one way to do it (a rule) not many (a guideline).

The BSA National needs to rewrite this in very clear and consie language so that there can be NO misunderstanding as to the proper application of the requirements.

It really is quite clear and concise.

[Scouting179]

... The instructions are quite clear when you fill it out about how to list the badges and which ones to use. - in the order they were earned, just like on the Eagle application itself...

Clarification: if your Council is using ScoutNet and uses electronic applications for Eagle, the MBs are NOT listed in the order they were earned, but are listed alphabetically, with requireds first, then non-requireds. This means that we you do a palm app, you have to check to see which ones weren't used and list 5 that haven't been used. If he earned more than one from an option group, it will list them all, eating a slot for a non-required on the form.

IMHO, this is really stupid for the non-requireds. It makes no sense whatsoever to me. Not to mention it makes the palm apps a real pain.

[Mrw]

That is why I add the badge to the palm application at the same time I record it on the advancement record.

I don't ever have to try later to figure out which ones I need.

Our last Eagle had 29 badges when I helped him get the badges in the right order for his application. We filled in the spots on the palm apps at the same time since we had to reorder the badges by date at the time anyways.

[Scouting179]

Sounds a good way to skin the cat.

BTW, Troopmaster ALWAYS lists MBs in the order earned.

I am our Adv Chair and figuring which MBs to put on the palm form is hard as I keep copies of EVERYTHING I give to Council, it's more a silly nuisance than anything.

[Mrw]

We are still doing things the old fashioned way - on paper.

I use the troop advancement report from Coucil when I help a boy with the Eagle app as they sometimes transpose a number putting in the dates and this way everything matches.

Unfortunately, the council overall report doesn't necessarily even list the badges in alphabetical order, much less always separate the require from electives or put them in any kind of date order.

We are looking at software for troop management and would appreciate any comments on the pros and cons of different packages. We have a SM, Committee Chair, advancement chair and treasurer who would all like to have access to a troop database.

[Scouting179]

Troopmaster is the only way to go for troop software, IMHO.