Professional Help on Eagle Project - How much?

[dstzn]

My son turned in his Eagle project for approval.. he will be building tall flagpoles at a prominent church.

He initiated this project himself, contacted the pastor, met with the church board. They liked the idea.

I put him in touch with an architect who has done work for me. These need to be signed off by a professional. The architect has offered to autocad and finalize sketches drawn by my son, teaching him how do do it along the way. For a professional look and in particular for safety codes, an architect's involvement is imperative. It would be irresponsible to build such a structure without a sign-off.

The advancement board returned the project book with questions that indicate that they are concerned that the project is being planned by the architect without my son; that he is merely supplying labor.

The board's question is completely in line and understandable - I'm not writing to whine about them.

I know my son is managing and coordinating the architect, and there has been no direct commmunication with the architect and the church. It has all been through my son. All labor will be volunteer.

I am staying back and advising. I have had no discussions with any of them since the initial introduction of my son to the architect. Did I go too far even doing that much?

It is difficult to give details on a forum. I am lookng for advice to pass to my son from someone who can share your judgement on how to use a professional, without the pro "doing" the project, and how to demonstrate to the advancement comittee that this will take place.

[riverwalk]

If the Project's presentation (write ups) outlined the contacts, discussions, and direction by your Scout to parties involved....will this not be more Scout controlled perhaps?

[Scouting179]

It would help if the write up indicated that the architect was helping your son and teaching him, not doing it for him.

[ASM-142]

As long as your son is managing the project and therefore demonstrating leadership there should be nothing wrong with using an architect.

If you look at a real world example for a building project an architect is used but it is the general contractor running the show much like your son is for this project.

[JazerNorth]

I can understand the concern from the committee. If I were on it and an Eagle project came in with the same thing, I would ask questions to verify that the scout was leading the project. I would then expect the scout to return to the Committee with details on how he is leading the project and the professional is in a support role. Also, the project write up and details should be in scout language. Meaining, if a professional wrote it, then it would have the writing style of a professional. If a scout wrote it, the writing style would be the scouts.

I have seen many projects that needed to have professional help. The projects had safety and structural concerns, and they were passed through the committee and council.

Hope that helps.

JazerNorth

[Lynda J]

I would have questions if your son simply turned the design over to the archietec and took no part if the actual designing of the flag poles. Even though he is doing the contacting and planning I would like to see him also work with the architec on the cad planning. This may very well be the reason they were questioning him on the designing portion of the project. It would also benifit him on seeing what goes into the design of certain things.

[ASM-142]

I would have questions if your son simply turned the design over to the archietec and took no part if the actual designing of the flag poles. Even though he is doing the contacting and planning I would like to see him also work with the architec on the cad planning. This may very well be the reason they were questioning him on the designing portion of the project. It would also benifit him on seeing what goes into the design of certain things.

Why does a scout need to be involved in the actual designing? If it is his conceptual idea and he is managing and leading the project tht should be sufficient. The purpose of an Eagle project is to show leadership where the actual work can be done by others.

[Lynda J]

There is a big difference between having an idea or concept of something to be built and the actual designing of that same thing. I have seen people have concepts of something they think is a great idea but when it gets down to actually designing and turning it into a functioning reality they have no concept of what it takes. In some cases it isn't even feasible to make the idea a reality.
So I think it would be to his advantage to understand what goes into designing something like this. Understanding what possible city codes are involved regarding heights and size. The process of taking an idea and turning it into a functioning product. Would I turn down the project because he wasn't in on the design? NO. But it would be more impressive to me if he had spent time working with the architect going through the design process.

[ASM-142]

Part of leading and managing is knowing your limitations and using the right qualified resources. A scout leading and managing a project should not need to know the city codes but know that city codes are required to be followed and ensure that the proper permits and sign-offs are obtained. It may be more impressive if the scout was involved in the actual design with the architect, however, it architecture is something that he is not interested in there should be no reason why the scout needs to work side-by-side with the architect. The scout should provide the architect with his concept and then approve the architect's design when it is ready (including getting proper city sign-offs).

[dstzn]

Wow - lots of good, quick answers. Thank You.

He has talked with his scoutmaster (Venture leader) and will answer the committee's questions with a much more detailed list of chronological activities, that show he is basically "hiring" the architect to work at his direction. The architect's duties will be spelled out in detail. I believe they will show the committee that the architect is a key helper, not the manager.

Regardless of whether my son should or should not design the project, he is goind to get cad and design lessons from the architect in the process, meaning he will be doing some design.

Part of the issue here is knowing how much detail to send in just for approval - many of these details were going to be worked out by my son following approval. He had thought that so much detail wasn't necessary for a go-ahead.

He understands that the committee is doing their job, and that he would rather know ahead of time if it is not appropriate than to find out after it is too late.

Thanks Again.

[Elangomat]

My view as a scout (esp. one waiting for a BoR for Eagle) is that he should be with the arch. in every step of the designing. And plus, how many people could say they've learned how to do that?! I'd love to sit with an arch. and learn how to!!! But I'm not an adult yet and do not know what the Adv. Chairs want in an Eagle write-up...

[evmori]

I see nothing wrong with an architect designing the poles. The Scout is using his resources. And the Scout has final say on the design. The Scout's purpose is to lead and manage the project, not do all the work.

[Lynda J]

What about this scout finding out what city codes are required for this project. About permits and the zoning requirements.
I still think the scout needs to be part of the design.
Instead of simply taking the idea to the architech and letting someone else design the pole.
If Kevin was doing this project I would want him involved in the actual design of the pole. Simply because it gives him an insight into what is involved in getting approval for this type of pole. From City Council to Code Compliance requirements.

As far as Eagle Projects. I would prefer to see a project over designed that under designed when it is presented to the board for approval.

Had a young man come to us last year for approval of a project of painting the fire hydrants in his city. It was a good project and well planned. One of the problems he encountered was fire ants. He planned on spraying poison on them. One of our board members is a bit of an enviromentlist. He ask the boy if he had ever thought about the posibility of using something other that insecticide to get rid of the ants. He hadn't.
What this young man did was take his project back and ask for a new meeting at a later date. When he came back he had other options. To be honest we would have approved the project as written but were proud of him for wanting to take the project a little farther.

[Rick Tyler]

Had a young man come to us last year for approval of a project of painting the fire hydrants in his city. It was a good project and well planned. One of the problems he encountered was fire ants. He planned on spraying poison on them. One of our board members is a bit of an enviromentlist. He asked the boy if he had ever thought about the posibility of using something other that insecticide to get rid of the ants.

Well, yeah, but I doubt the G2SS would allow him to use flame throwers, bio-warfare agents or nuclear weapons...

[Lynda J]

Yea Rick. I agree. Here in Texas fighting fire ants is a full time job. Still haven't gound anything that really works all the time. But I hadn't thought about flame throwers, might try that as long as the neighbors don't complain to much.

[EagleBoy62204]

My view as a scout (esp. one waiting for a BoR for Eagle) is that he should be with the arch. in every step of the designing. And plus, how many people could say they've learned how to do that?! I'd love to sit with an arch. and learn how to!!! But I'm not an adult yet and do not know what the Adv. Chairs want in an Eagle write-up...

You are exactly right. SO many eagle projects these days are led by the scouts parents that its almost impossible to have a scout do something without someone standing over his shoulder telling him that hes doing it wrong or should do it like something else. Im not saying that you have done this, but this is supposed to be the BOYS project. He should go about leading a group of boys to build/ construct the flag poles..and if he needs help he can contact a few adults to do the project.

I dont know your son nor his project well enough so i cant and wont demeaner him from it, but it seems a little cheap that he was able to get a designer to set it up for him.

Remember an Eagle Scout Project is supposed to be run and lead by the scout whos going up for the badge, not the parents or other adults who are looking on.

Off topic.: Please dont take offence to this, i know i dont know the whole project or know your son for that matter. I just dont like projects with alot of adults involved. For my project i had a total of two adults help in my project, one for first aid matters and one as a back up emergancy driver.

[ASM-142]

My view as a scout (esp. one waiting for a BoR for Eagle) is that he should be with the arch. in every step of the designing. And plus, how many people could say they've learned how to do that?! I'd love to sit with an arch. and learn how to!!! But I'm not an adult yet and do not know what the Adv. Chairs want in an Eagle write-up...

You are exactly right. SO many eagle projects these days are led by the scouts parents that its almost impossible to have a scout do something without someone standing over his shoulder telling him that hes doing it wrong or should do it like something else. Im not saying that you have done this, but this is supposed to be the BOYS project. He should go about leading a group of boys to build/ construct the flag poles..and if he needs help he can contact a few adults to do the project.

I dont know your son nor his project well enough so i cant and wont demeaner him from it, but it seems a little cheap that he was able to get a designer to set it up for him.

Remember an Eagle Scout Project is supposed to be run and lead by the scout whos going up for the badge, not the parents or other adults who are looking on.

Off topic.: Please dont take offence to this, i know i dont know the whole project or know your son for that matter. I just dont like projects with alot of adults involved. For my project i had a total of two adults help in my project, one for first aid matters and one as a back up emergancy driver.

The purpose of the Eagle Porject is to "Lead" not become an architect. Part of leadership is using the resouces that are available to you in the most efficient manner. As a manager, I can not sit by the side of each of my staff while they are performing their jobs. Likewise, an Eagle candidate that is taking advantage of an architect should not have to sit by his side. The Eagle candidate should however, be responsible for the approval of the design and the management of the architects time.

[Lynda J]

We recently had a young man doing an Eagle Project at a small church owner park. They put up a fence across the back of the park area to block out the view of the "ditch" between the park and the view of the back of a service stations. The church owned the land and approved the design and size of the fence. They didn't find out about city codes or permit requirements. Well guess what. They put the fence right on the property line. The Code Enforcement officer saw it. Ask them for their permits which they didn't have. They had to take the fence down and move in 3' inside the property line because the ditch was a part of the flood drainage system and the city required a 3' easement. I did not sit on the board that approved his project. Had I been there I would have ask him about city code requirements.

Yes part of an Eagle project is the scout learning leadership. But part of it should also be teaching good citizenship, and that means making sure that you are within your cities rules and regulations that might apply to your project. So many times project look really great on paper, but we need to teach boys that there are many times regulations that have to be conformed to.
With his flag pole. Does it meet heights requirements. Is the base strong enough to support the pole. Do the rocks that a boy may want to line a drainage ditch with have an adverse effect of the speed with which the water runs through the ditch. Some cities may not have policies on what a project may be. But this information should be a part of the aspects of the project planning and sorry it shouldn't be left to a "hired" professional to do.

[ASM-142]

... but we need to teach boys that there are many times regulations that have to be conformed to.
With his flag pole. Does it meet heights requirements. Is the base strong enough to support the pole. Do the rocks that a boy may want to line a drainage ditch with have an adverse effect of the speed with which the water runs through the ditch. Some cities may not have policies on what a project may be. But this information should be a part of the aspects of the project planning and sorry it shouldn't be left to a "hired" professional to do.

I agree that a Eagle Candidate should be aware of the regulations and rules that must be satisifed in completing the project he has planned and lead, but the use of a professional, whether it is a licensed architect, engineer, plumber or other trade should be encouraged and in some cases should be required.

[Lynda J]

I have no problem with the boy using a professional. In fact in something like this I would encourage that. BUT. The scouts should be part of the complete process. He should work with the professional. Not just simply drop the idea off to the professional and wait until they call him and tell him it is ready.

Should the scout be the one that goes and get what ever permits that are required. That depends. In some cities only a licensed professional can pull a permit on some things. But he does need to understand the process of doing it.