Merit Badge Prerequisites

[optimist]

Messages moved from MeritBadge.com

Rascal
Scout

Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 3

Posted: 20 Jul 2004 01:41 am Post subject: Merit Badge
Prerequisites

Several boys from our troop wanted to work on the Camping
Merit Badge and Citizenship in the World. There are a few
requirements that cannot be accomplished during summer camp
and are identified as prerequisites by the summer camp. One is
the 20 nights/days camping. Another is the option of one-year
foreign language study for Citizenship in the World. The
program director at the summer camp has said that the scout
should get credit for these requirements. If the scout has
requested the blue card just prior to summer camp, and
requirements were done prior to the blue card being issued,
should his camping and/or foreign language study be counted?

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optimist
Advancement Chairman

Joined: 27 Jun 2004
Posts: 148

Posted: 20 Jul 2004 08:04 am Post subject:

No Scout should be asked to redo work already completed. That
should be common sense but the confusion is caused by the
following:

Quote:
Call the Counselor. Get a signed merit badge application
from your Scoutmaster. Get in touch with the merit badge
counselor and tell him or her that you want to earn the
merit badge. The counselor may ask you to come and see
him so he can explain what he expects and start helping
you meet the requirements.

When you know what is expected, start to learn and do
the things required.

The above quote from the BSA document "Introduction to Merit
Badges" is one of the most misconstued in the program. Many
people take this to mean that you can't do anything associated
with a merit badge until a blue card is issued.

This is simply not true. The idea behind these rules is to
make sure a support structure is in place to assist the Scout
and to provide adequate opportunity to determine that
requirements are successfully completed. If it can be
reasonably shown that the Scout has successfully completed a
requirement, what would be the point of demanding that he
complete it again?

Camping Merit Badge is one of the best examples. What do
Scouts do? They camp. It's an intregal part of the program.
Look at the requirements. They are the steps someone would go
through as they get better and better at camping. Every Scout
should naturally complete Camping Merit Badge without much
conscious effort simply as they learn more and get better at
camping.

It all boils down to the purposes of the advancement program
-- self-reliance, ability to help others, and challenges.
There is little doubt that every time we camp we become a
little more self-reliant and we improve our ability to help
others in the outdoors but that will always be true. The idea
here is to develop self-reliance and improve our abilities to
help others through 20 days and nights of camping. What
purpose is served by asking for more than that? And there is
certainly no challenge in asking the Scout camp 20 more days
and nights when they have already camped 20 days and nights.

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Rascal
Scout

Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 3

Posted: 20 Jul 2004 08:56 am Post subject:

Thank you very much Optimist for your quick and sensible reply
to this confusing topic!

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evmori
Tenderfoot

Joined: 06 Jul 2004
Posts: 13
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posted: 20 Jul 2004 09:45 am Post subject: Pre Reqs

If the pre-reqs aren't complete they shouldn't get credit for
them! I had a Scout who didn't do his 5 mile hike for camping
& he came home with a partial.
_________________
Ed Mori
Troop 1
1 Peter 4:10

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Rascal
Scout

Joined: 19 Jul 2004
Posts: 3

Posted: 20 Jul 2004 09:52 am Post subject:

In this case, the pre-reqs were complete. Thanks for your
input though.

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RWSmith
Counselor

Joined: 13 Jul 2004
Posts: 55
Location: Charlotte, NC
Posted: 28 Jul 2004 05:16 pm Post subject: Re: Pre Reqs

evmori wrote:

If the pre-reqs aren't complete they shouldn't get
credit for them! I had a Scout who didn't do his 5 mile
hike for camping & he came home with a partial.

I have no problem with a kid coming home from summer camp w/ a
partial. But, how long ago was this? The reason I'm asking is,
"a 5-mile hike" is not mentioned anywhere in the current
requirements for the 'Camping' MB. (Just curious. Really.)
_________________
Bob Smith, OA, NESA, DAV
ADC, Apache District

If you can read this, thank a teacher... If you can read it in
English, thank a Veteran.

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ICanCanoeCanU
Second Class

Joined: 05 Aug 2004
Posts: 20

Posted: 08 Aug 2004 09:09 am Post subject: Merit Badge
Prerequisites

I remind scouts that partials are expected on some badges.
After camp, I sit with them to make sure they know what else
they have to finish, and give them the phone# of local
counselors to call so they can finish them at home. This
teaches them to follow through and to connect with a new
adult, usually someone they don't know. After all, partial
credit for something is better than no credit at all. Besides
it gives them a path to start with for the new year, plus it
garauntees them a badge for the mid year COH.

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[Bob White]

Besides it gives them a path to start with for the new year, plus it
garauntees them a badge for the mid year COH

What makes you sure of that. The Scout has until his 18th birthday to complete that badge.

Bob White

[edlepera]

We are having diffcult with are committee. Two years ago many of the Scouts did a Troop trip to Washington DC. One of the scouts us this trip for part of his merit badge. The Merit badge counselor said it was not valid and he had to redo it. In talking to the council they said it should be counted. The Troop committee continues to block the approval of the merit badge. They said that they will not acept the complete application for the merit badge even though the Merit badge counselors at Summer Camp accepted and signed off the application completed. I told the parent to take the completed application for the merit badge to the council and get it recorded as complete. Did I do right. As a AS I review the Scouts worksheet and was extremely impressed by his knowledge and skill in doing the worksheet. I have known this boy for years. He is crushed by the action of the troop committee.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

What makes you sure of that. The Scout has until his 18th birthday to complete that badge.

Assuming they want to finish this badge right after returning from summer camp. I understand they have until they're 18 but most scouts want to finish the badges the following fall of that year. With this time table, they will complete the badge in time for the Dec/Jan COH.

Edelpera - which badge is he trying to get credit for? Our troop doesn't discredit a requirement a scout did prior to filling out his blue card as long as someone in the troop can verify the scout doing the requirement. Example - we had a few boys earn the hiking badge using a few 5 mile hikes that the troop had done together on campouts prior to the boys getting blue cards signed. It wasn't until the boys realised they had covered so much of the badge that they decided to finish with the other hikes needed. Since so many from the troop had participated on the original hikes, why wouldn't we give them credit for them. We do the same thing for the camping MB. Most younger scouts don't think to get a blue card filled out before starting on the required nights of camping.

[edlepera]

The Merit Badge is question is Citizenship in the Nation. While the Counselors (two of them) at summer camp approved of it the so called merit badge counselor merit badge counselor on our committee refuses to accept it. The D.C. Trip was an approved BSA Local Council Trip.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

Did they state a reason for rejecting it? If a counselor at camp already accepted it, didn't they sign off on it? How could your MBC overturn the credit when another counselor has given credit for it?

[edlepera]

They said that it had been too long since the Washington DC trip. The trip was in the spring of 2003 and the scout did the merit badge in summer 2005

[ASM-142]

They said that it had been too long since the Washington DC trip. The trip was in the spring of 2003 and the scout did the merit badge in summer 2005

The only time limit on completing a MB is the scouts 18th birthday. If a counselor signed off on the MB at summercamp the troop committee can not overturn this. The troop committee is not involved in MB. This is not a BOR for a rank.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I agree that this is not a decision for the committee (and even if it was - they're wrong). I would call the council to obtain the name of MBC's outside the troop. Finish the badge with someone else.

I would also let the council know what your committee is doing. Or at least start with your local rep.

[edlepera]

Thank You I have forward these remarks and others to our committee chair. Since the requirement was approved by a Camp MBC the data was input into a database at council and is now official. So I ask the committee chair to write the council and inform them that the requirement is too old. I imagine that there will be some fallout from this.
Thanks for the help

[RWSmith]

There is one other significant "timeline" issue other than the Scout's 18th birthday... and this issue is far-and-away the more abused of the two...

All Scout rank, MB, or other award requirements requirement(s) in question must be completed by a "Scout" in order for the Rank, MB or award, requirement to be passed off... Therefore, it is understood that, unless it is otherwise specifically stated (and there are such rare instances), any requirement may be met by a boy once he becomes a Scout.

If I am counseling a 17-y/o Scout on the Communications MB (who was a registered Boy Scout at the age of 12) and he brings me a note from his 6th-grade elementary school teacher stating he wrote a 5-min speech and gave it to his class (five years ago!), then I am obligated, as a registered MBC, to sign off Requirement 3 as being met. Communications MB, Req. 3. "Write a five-minute speech. Give it at a meeting of a group." Anyone can "do" this requirement, even a non-Scout; but, in order for me to be able to sign a Blue Card as a requirement having been met, it must be perfomed by a registerd Boy Scout. Nothing more, nothing less... Period. Think about it.

[ICanCanoeCanU]

I agree but that's not the case here. This was a trip the boy did with his troop and his committee is stating that the trip was done to long ago.

The only other time limit I can think of is the fact that a summercamp requires passing a new swim test each season.

[Chief J]

It is not up to the Troop Committee to determine if a Scout has earned a merit badge or not. That decision rests with the merit badge counselor.

With respect to partials, the merit badge counselor who will sign off on the blue card MAY ask the scout to display his understandiong of those requirements signed off by a different counselor. The key word being MAY.

Once the Counselor is satisfied that the Scout has completed all requirements, they can then sign off on the blue card. Once this is done, the Scout has earned the badge.

Sounds like your Troop Committee needs to be trained so they understand what there role in the Scouting Program is.

Chief J.

[Scouting179]

As for something the 6th grade counting, I'd agree it'd count if the boy was in a Troop at the time and not a Pack and the speech wasn't used for counting toward anything else. I believe things are not supposed to be counted toward more than one thing (EX: doing a conservation project for X hours and using towards a rank's service hours and as conservation hourse for a MB).

There is no time limit on MBs as long as not is stated in the MB requirements; they can start one when they're 11 and finish it just before they are 18.

[RWSmith]

I agree 100%. Key word, "registered Boy Scout". No Boy Scout Rank or MB requirement can count while registered as a Cub or Webelos Scout.

The approval authority for ALL Boy Scout ranks and MBs, except the Eagle Badge, rests solely with the Scout's SM. I include MBs because the SM has the authority to select the MBC that the Scout must use. Once the SM makes his selection (or gives the Scout the option of selecting a MBC from an approved list), then, the MBCs decision(s) are final.

And handling a Partial is pretty straight-forward... if certain requirements were signed off by a previous MBC, the new MBC is still obligated to accept it, as long as the SM at the time did not object to the selection of the former MBC and the former MBC was on the MBC's District- or Council-approved MBC roster for that MB. Now, as Cheif J said, that does not mean the new MBC does not have the right to review the previsously earned requirements with the Scout and encourage him to re-familiarize himself with certain areas which stand out as lacking. But still, the MBC can't un-do what's already been presented to the Scout, in writing.

If a Scout did not meet the spirit of the requirement, then the SM should address the Scout Spirit issue and, possibly, ask (but not require!) him to consider making it right, so to speak, even if just for the sake of appearances. But, once a Scout is given written certification of a requirement being competed, we cannot, under any circumstances, make him re-do the work.

JMO

[wagionvigil]

Fopr something to count for a MB a Blue card must be filled out and signed by the Scout master BEFORE doing anything that you wnat to count towrd the MB. If you do something and want to count it and the sm haas not signed and given you a blue card for that MB then it does not count.

[edlepera]

Thanks much for the information. But I am afraid that we will need our district and possible council intervention. We have some pigheaded people that feel it is okay to impose additional restrictions on the scouts. I have been sharing what you all have been sending me to our comittee chair who made the ruling.

Our SM is new but desires to follow the handbook to the letter.

[wagionvigil]

Troopes and Committess are not permitted to make any rules different than BSA policies and rules. The troop is in danger of loosing their charter if someone wishes to push the issue. Where are you from? Iffrom the NER I can make some calls.

[Lynda J]

If a registered, approved Merit Badge Counselor signed off that the boy has completed any badge, the committee has no right to turn down that badge. That simply is not the way it works. I have one boy that brought me a signed off blue card on a badge. My gut feeling was that he had not done all the work required. But if the counselor signed off on the card he has officially according to BSA Policy earned that badge, and I as ASM have no standing.
Have a boy in my troop that started one badge in 2001. He has just started back working on it. It does not matter how long between the time the scout starts the a badge and the time he finished it. Just as long as it is before his 18th birthday.

You need to get with your Unit Commissioner and let him/her explain BSA policy on Merit Badges. Plain and simple.

[ASM-142]

... if certain requirements were signed off by a previous MBC, the new MBC is still obligated to accept it, as long as the SM at the time did not object to the selection of the former MBC and the former MBC was on the MBC's District- or Council-approved MBC roster for that MB.

Does the MBC need to be on your won District or Council approved MBC list. My troop alternates between different summercamp between in council and out of council. If the MBC must be from my own council then a lot of badges that the boys have earned may not be valid even though the MBC was registered and approved by another council.